In the shadow of Grenfell Tower- thread four

[RhythmAndStealth]

Rest in Peace

Isaac Shawo, 5
Khadija Saye, 24
Mohammed Alhalaji, 23

At least thirty people confirmed to have died

Six further deceased victims provisionally identified

Many more people feared to have died. They have yet to be reunited with their names

Nineteen people still in hospital, with ten in critical care

Many people homeless and dispossessed

Many bereaved

Many traumatised

“…it is difficult to escape a very sombre national mood.” The Queen.

Three investigations launched- Fire, Police and Public Inquiry
£5m Government Emergency Fund created
£3m donated by public
Peaceful protesters demand justice and answers.

Thread three (includes links to threads one and two)

Another local on the likely real numbers in the fire.

This MUST be acknlowledged by the authorities. Sticking to protocal about only releasing numbers of identified bodies is not appropriate in this incident. This is a disaster of HUGE proportions. It needs to be recognised - otherwise it's like the dead are still being ignored and silenced even after they're gone.

Are they trying to cover it up? You'd like to think we'd moved on from the authorities' instant reaction to cover their tracks at Hillsborough ,and I really hope we have- but it's up to us m the public, to demand answers if none are forthcoming.

"Sticking to protocal about only releasing numbers of identified bodies is not appropriate in this incident."

They have quite clearly said they have only identified five bodies.

They are releasing deaths prior to identifying them, and they have said that within the 79 that was mentioned that involves the missing people who are presumed dead. It has also said that number may rise, or fall.

Sleeping I saw that video yesterday and could not stop thinking about it.

There are too many people that live around the area that are saying there are a lot of people unaccounted for, for it not to be true.

I read somewhere that numbers will continue to go up slowly rather that be announced at once. Just awful.

Not saying there aren't 300 people in there - I have no way of knowing!

Just look at the building and do the maths FFS. Then listen to the voices of the survivors and locals on social media.

This was a towerblock housing families in one of the most desirable areas of London. Do you think all those flats were lying empty?

so I dont think it started on a balcony.

Probably not as there were no balconies! on that block.

How can we do the maths when no figure of residents confirmed safe has been released?

MonkeylovesRobot I stand corrected on the identified but - whatever the reason is behind it, it's not good enough that they are minimising this incident.

If your entire neigbourhood was obliterated by a fire becuase of government neglect and putting profit before people, how would you feel if they said only 79 died when you knew it was hundreds?

It smacks of a cover-up. If it's not intentional then they need to change their procedures ASAP to respect those dead, the survivors and all their friends and families.

If it is a poor attempt at a cover-up we're even more screwed than I thought.

It's hard to know what to believe these days isn't it. Sometimes we need to use our common sense and judgement. In a situation That is so unbelievably and incredibly awful as this should, people should not have to deal with coverups and lies. No good can come out of it as we are clearly witnessing. So much anger and frustration. So many unanswered questions.

A single stairway is surely enough to evacuate 24 floors within 30 minutes/one hour? If only everyone had been alerted and if only the advice had been to evacuate. It's so tragic.

At the very least, the upper most floors should be evacuated as a matter of course as they're the ones that the fire brigade can't reach. The further down the building those residents are, the easy they'd be to rescue.

What's to stop some kind of alarm system where the evacuation can be activated "floor by floor" to try to even out the number of people on each section of the staircase? Such as the top two floors and middle two floors first, then a minute or two later, activate for the next two top floors, and next two middle floors down, to avoid stampedes and stairway blockages?

"they are minimising this incident. "

I feel sick that you are accusing the police and LFB of minimising the incident. Actually sick.

"when you knew it was hundreds?"

How do people know it is hundreds? Has someone called the casualty bureau with the names of these several hundred people and confirmed they have not been accounted for elsewhere?

The best placed people who know what they are talking about, who have access to all the lists - are the police and LFB. No one else has access to the range of information that they have. They have both said the numbers may rise, but for now that number is 79.

That's a good suggestion badbadbunny

Maths:

Greenfrell is known to house up to 600 people.

65 people were rescued by fire fighters.
74 people are missing and presumed dead
5 dead have been identified

Where are the rest?

Badbad On an earlier thread, there was a lady saying that her or her husband have an alarm that does it like that in their workplace - it activates to each area as they need to activate.

I've never seen anything like it - ours is the get the fuck out of the building as quickly as you can, but I work in above two floors of chemical, gases and explosives so people generally do get themselves out of the building quickspeed. We also have multipl (maybe 5) escape routes from our office which don't involve climbing out of windows and across rooftops.

PLEASE READ THIS. David Lammy( scroll down for video) talking about the possibility of documents being shredded and asking why police havent been in to seize documents which they have the power to do under PACE. Lammy also points out they did it re. hacking inquiry . There is other interesting info on this blog too.

Like i said and others are saying including Grenfell residents.......the trust is gone.

voxpoliticalonline.com/2017/06/19/evidence-mounts-against-the-authorities-over-the-grenfell-tower-disaster-strong-language/

"65 people were rescued by fire fighters."

Many evacuated themselves.
Some were not in the building (work, prayers, out for the night)

Many people got out before the firefighters started rescuing people.

You can see footage of residents walking down the stairs and walking out of the building in the early stages of the fire. The stairs are smoke free at that point.

sleeping they also talk about the numbers of people on the blog ive just linked.

The best placed people who know what they are talking about, who have access to all the lists - are the police and LFB

Them, and the people who live there.

They are telling VERY different stories.

Remember, it's ignoring the residents' voices was a serious contributing factor to this fire.
Don't continue to make that mistake.

Did you watch the video I posted above? Orthe one posted by Justdontgetitatall?

If you're not prepared to even listen to the voices of the people involved I don't think you should comment.

Some were not in the building (work, prayers, out for the night)

Yes and by the same token some had guests, especially some who were observing ramadan.

They need more than one stairwell in buildings. They need at least one to evacuate people and another for the firefighters to go up and down to deal with the fire.

In that firefighter's account, they were struggling just to get past other firefighters coming down the stairs.

Thanks for that link HelenaDove. Shocking stuff

"If you're not prepared to even listen to the voices of the people involved I don't think you should comment."

Don't start, I have listened to the people - I have probably done more than you have in this respect.

However, I am also aware that Casualty Bureau lists have not been published yet and the people in the tower may not have an accurate understanding of the number of people who are known to be safe, nor who was in, and who was not in the tower.

As I have already shown - your numbers didn't even included the people who evacuated themselves before the fire brigade turned up, or whilst the fire brigade were there but didn't need LFB assistance.

You can see footage of residents walking down the stairs and walking out of the building in the early stages of the fire. The stairs are smoke free at that point.

Indeed, I would expect that the people living on the side of the block where the fire started would have seen the smoke/flames through their windows and taken their own decision to get the hell out of there whilst the staircase was clear. There is a video of the lobby right at the start where the fire hasn't really taken hold and it shows a steady steam of people walking out. I would imagine that it's those at the opposite side, where the fire didn't reach until an hour or two later, who'd have stayed put because they were either unaware of it or didn't appreciate how serious it was, simply because they wouldn't have been able to see anything of it outside their windows. So, potentially half the occupants may have got themselves out during the first half hour or so, without needing to be rescued. In fact, the interview with the firefighter mentions that their attempts to climb the stairs were hindered because of the number of people making their own way down!!

SylviaPoe Yes, although I would say they need to emergency escape routes in case one is blocked by a fire - that way there is always one that is free.

Ok I'm going to put this very bluntly some of you who think there is a coverup can understand.

When lots of bodies are burned in a fire as fierce like that there might only be a little bit of them left. Or nothing. Or it might be fused to the floor or the bed or wherever and hard to tell if it's human remains or not. If there are more than one body together, again, they will be mixed together (like Pompeii only not preserved). When faced with a pile of charred bones it takes time to count how many legs and arms and heads you have.

Then you want to try and remove them in as complete and dignified a way as possible so the remains can be returned to family, rather than mixing them all up and having to sort them out again at the other end which takes even more time.

IT ALL TAKES TIME. Let the bloody police and LFB do their jobs, stop minimising and slander using their frankly heroic contribution to the number of lives saved and just have some bloody respect, for the bodies that are in there. Or would you rather they just rake them all out in one big pile for you to see?