Grenfell Tower fire- thread three

[RhythmAndStealth]

Seventeen tragic deaths confirmed so far, six victims provisionally identified.
Number of those who perished feared to rise into triple figures as search proceeds
Search for remaining victims expected to take weeks, sadly it’s considered unlikely that it will be possible to identify all the victims
Names of those still missing start to emerge
Nearly 80 victims being treated across six hospitals, with 15 still in critical care
Hundreds of people displaced and dispossessed, concerned about when and where they will be rehoused

Public inquiry ordered.
Criminal investigation launched.
Serious questions being asked about fire safety regulations, management of social housing, austerity and inequality.
Fire Brigade search of building expected to take weeks due to complexity of building, extent of fire damage and the necessity of undertaking a painstaking fingertip search.

“There must be arrests after this monstrous crime” David Lammy MP

‘Families rehoused last night been left clueless about where to spend next nights. No word from #kccouncil. Chaos.” Emily Maitlis, BBC

“We have to act as if it was our friends, our family in that block” Nick Hurd MP, Policing and Fire Minister

“Someone needs to be held accountable. These deaths could have been prevented.” Local resident to Sadiq Khan

Thread 2
Thread 1

EM lives nearby, she knows the local issues which TM does not.

I would add to that list restricted escape time and increased smoke toxicity caused by the Department for Business's failure to act on its own proposed changes to improve sofa/mattress safety.

I'm curious to know (as someone with one in my kitchen!) if it was one of the faulty Beko fridges that have been repaired. And on the subject of multiple failures, is a faulty appliance more vulnerable to being affected by power surges?

Since the Tory/LD coalition massive massive cuts have been made to local government funding from central govt. PP are right this affects all public services and exacerbates the pressure on each one. The local council response to the Grenfell fire isn't even slightly adequate, but also their financial resources will have been whittled down and down over years. So they will have had to set their priorities in that austerity context. To paraphrase JC you can't provide decent public services on the cheap. That is true whatever the political leadership of the council.

Rhythm please do share the RCPCH statement widely- I will do same with your BMJ blog. Thanks for that.

Regarding faulty appliances, this is the realm of Trading Standards. But their funding was cut by 46% a few years back. It's got to the stage where, for example, they often can't afford to buy a sofa or mattress, which they need to do to test it and decide whether or not to prosecute. Ironically - and I don't expect to hear anyone cheering this - in this respect the poor may actually receive better protection (albeit restricted by funding) in that TS can afford to test cheaper sofas while the high-end ones are left unmonitored (and believe me, business is well aware of that fact).

"During the Tory/Lib Dem coalition the government introduced the "Red Tape Challenge". It pledged to help the country (well, business mostly) get on with doing stuff without being restricted by pesky red tape. Now, this may be indicative of the Tories (more than the Lib Dems perhaps) but the first tranche of regulations to be put up for the axe contained a whole bunch of consumer safety laws including the two that I know about: the flammability of furniture and children's nightwear."

Yes. There was/is a guideline that for every new set of regulations to go through parliament, two more sets should be axed (One In, Two Out). There was talk of even extending this to One In, Three Out. Now it's quite possible that there were some unnecessary/conflicting regulations that needed to be sorted out, but it's also obvious that One In, Two Out is absolutely unsustainable in the medium to long term. As jennymor's anecdote makes very clear.

80 people treated across six hospitals,
Police saying 70 missing. If you believe what the government, media are saying about 30 being dead then you are deluded. Where are the 500+ people who lived there- how many are in the sports centres? THE government\council do not want people to know the true numbers because they have blood on their hands. Where's the true list of missing people, families, kids?? If you go and speak to the firefighters they will tell you the truth that number is a three digit number. The poor people of Kensington were housed in a towering inferno because the rich people didn't want to see an unsightly tower block in their neighbourhood. The richest council didn't want to spend 200 grand on a sprinkler system that would have saved every one yet a few roads down the new blocks for the rich have a sprinkler in every flat and state of the art alarm system. I am more and more beginning to see the divides in this country and it's not always a race thing it's a class thing.

That's shocking Jenny

www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2017/jun/17/architects-grenfell-tower-fire-was-an-avoidable-tragedy
Article basically pointing out that council building control has been trashed and in some cases privatised, with companies who will pass work easily, unsurprisingly getting the most work
All these cuts and efficiencies don't end up saving money when a disaster results.

instagram.com/p/BVb68yvgLNB/

instagram.com/p/BVb7oWbgGOE/

RCPCH Statement - please could someone link this for me? I can't find it.

Monkey

www.rcpch.ac.uk/news/grenfell-tower-fire

Thanks Rhythm!

Arnold Tarling "burst into tears" when he heard about the fire :(

www.cbc.ca/news/world/london-fire-grenfell-tarling-expert-1.4163560

The Times are the twats HelenaDove as you know. I was on the march last night that started outside the Home Office, sat down in the road in Oxford Street, went to the BBC and then marched on to Grenfell. I am not middle class, nor were a lot of the people on the march. It was peaceful apart from 2 incidents I saw - one from a pissed up man at a bus stop in Bond Street who tried to attack one of the women marching alongside me. And another passer by who shouted that Corbyn was a twat to deliberately incite us at Oxford Street. One of the marchers took the bait and trie to punch him. The police did nothing - it took other marchers to break it up and it was over within 15 seconds. But still got published online in the Scummy Sun as if it was representative of all of us,

The support from members of the public on the pavement was amazing, as were the car drivers, cabbies and bus drivers that were beeping their horns in support was like nothing I've ever seen on a march before and I've been on a lot. People are angry, they want justice, they are furious that so many people have died in something that happenned because of greed and was totally unavoidable. They used that anger to take to the streets, not because they're middle class twats or want to riot. They want justice for Grenfell and change to make sure this never happens again. The amount of people watching that clapped and shouted out 'Thank you, thank you' was incredible.

God I really hate right wing tory rags!

From Twitter
matthewprice
@bbcmatthewprice

Saturday 17 June

08.23
I've been to disasters around the world where British and UN and other teams flew in and helped set up support centres within 48hours.
08.24
One of the things fuelling the anger here - perhaps the main thing - is the lack of a central point of contact for answers.
08.26
It's a huge logistical challenge for the government and council but I'm astonished teams have not been on the ground from day one.

09.47
I've just been told by residents association representatives for the #GrenfellTower of "absolute chaos" of "no organisation" from officials.
09.48
People are still sleeping on floors days after the fire and have not been housed.
09.48
They say the local shopping complex offered to house and pay for all affected indefinitely but were turned down by the council.
09.51
I am told senior residents association figures believe this is "symptomatic of why we had this disaster"
09.52
And they are going to tell the prime minster that they want Kensington and Chelsea council cut out of the response effort.
09.53
They do not believe they are capable of managing the response. Such is the total and utter lack of trust.

The Guardian is reporting that some tube services have just been suspended on the advice of LFB over fears for the structural stability of the tower

BurnTheBlackSuit thank you for your list. I've added a couple of things I could think of.

Issues

Regulations not changed after Lakanal fire and other tower block fires world wide. Reports and advice not acted on and continually delayed.

Tenants (Grenfell Action Group) continually not listened to. Worries not taken seriously.

Faulty fridge? Or possible power surge causing it to catch fire?

• Previous evidence of poor wiring alluded to by tenants which was not followed up.

Cladding (Flammable materials used and Gap between cladding and building acted like chimney and cladding possibly attached to tower with wooden struts)

Fire Prevention measures (Fire breaks possibly removed or damaged and Cladding joined up the ‘separate’ flats)

Lack of sprinklers

Lack of a communal fire alarm system

• Dry risers in the building not able to be used - has this yet been reported why?

Single staircase - only one escape route.

Smoke in staircase

Lack of emergency lighting(?) - Yes, batteries reported to be flat

Residents told to remain in flats (as fire shouldn't have spread)

• Many residents housed on higher floors disabled or housebound and unable to evacuate without help, no provision for disabled evacuation.

Access for emergency services to block

No record of residents

Overcrowded housing

No emergency plan put in place by Council. No central information point. No coordinated rehousing effort. Offers of hosing being turned down by council(?). Relief effort organised and runs by volunteers- mosques and churches etc.

Council, government and Prime Minister not coming in person and helping and listening.

Deaths- number and individuals- being covered in a strange way by media. Minimising?

Need to rehouse residents locally

Other tower blocks across country potentially in danger - changes or rehousing is urgent

Need for quick answers to why this fire happened and a Need to act quickly on recommendations resulting from this.

Wider issues about Housing Associations, council spending/ priorities and the gap between the rich and the poor and racism.

-- Notes - I don't know if it's helpful in this case to go after the source of the fire if it was a common source such as a malfunctioning appliance or a discarded cigarette. Faulty wiring which could have been addressed with proper checks and maintenance, yes, but tenant furniture, smoking, cooking errors etc are not fully realistic to prevent, and in any case, the major problem here was the fact that the fire wasn't contained, not that it started in the first place. Fires start every day, but few cause this scale of devastation. For the same reason although I can see that flame "retardant" furniture may have exacerbated issues I don't know that it's a major factor to look at in this case as residents could potentially have any kind of problematic contents in their houses, for example hoarding of papers, combustible chemicals, as well as old furniture which doesn't meet requirements. Both are important issues, but I don't (personally) think they are relevant to Grenfell.

More detail re Lunde's post

Tube services disrupted amid fears over building structure

Owen Bowcott, Guardian

Latimer Road tube station has been closed and some underground services in the area suspended because of renewed fears about the structural safety of Grenfell Tower, officials have said.

A police officer at the site confirmed that the station and the Hammersmith and City Line had been shut following instructions from the London Fire Brigade (LFB), who are going through the charred skeleton of the building,

Transport for London confirmed that services between Edgware Road and Hammersmith had been suspended at the request of the fire service.

It was not clear what risk was believed to exist and LFB have not yet responded to requests for comment.

"For the same reason although I can see that flame "retardant" furniture may have exacerbated issues I don't know that it's a major factor to look at in this case as residents could potentially have any kind of problematic contents in their houses, for example hoarding of papers, combustible chemicals, as well as old furniture which doesn't meet requirements. Both are important issues, but I don't (personally) think they are relevant to Grenfell."

As said, I agree that flame retardants in furniture isn't the main issue. However it is connected to systems, effects and mismanagements that are relevant. In this case, it's how the government is caving in to business interests instead of protecting the public. I'm quite sure the same kind of thing goes on with the fire safety requirements for buildings. I know, for example, that the sprinkler lobby has been very persistent to get DCLG to make their products mandatory. And while on the surface that may seem sensible, don't forget that they will make huge profits from such a mandate. I knew the team at DCLG working in this area and while they were strong supporters of smoke alarms they had reasons to not be so enthusiastic about sprinklers (although I'm afraid I can't remember exactly what these were).

Similarly, while the vast majority of firefighters are totally committed to public safety even before their own, there are certain fire service officials who are strongly supportive of flame retardants, ignoring the evidence of the harm they do to firefighters (especially re cancer - statistics suggest firefighters suffer four times the amount of cancers than normal) and receive funding from the flame retardant industry. This extends to firefighters who set up in business after they retire as fire consultants. I know one who is funded by the world's 3 biggest flame retardant companies. He says it doesn't affect his judgement, yet he is one of those blocking changes to the furniture regulations.

Now TM is meeting survivors later today at number ten! I hope someone's told her how to come across as a human this time! No doubt the people will be hand picked and not anyone that will say anything to her.

Yes I agree, that makes a lot of sense.

From the BBC

Government statement on cladding
Posted at
12:31
There has been speculation over whether the cladding used to cover Grenfell Tower contributed to the speed at which the fire spread.

BBC Newsnight has reported that the exterior cladding on Grenfell Tower, added in 2015, had a polyethylene - or plastic - core instead of a more fireproof alternative.

Now comes a statement from the Department for Communities and Local Government: "Cladding using a composite aluminium panel with a polyethylene core would be non-compliant with current Building Regulations guidance.

"This material should not be used as cladding on buildings over 18m in height.

"We cannot comment on what type of cladding was used on the building - this will be subject to investigations."