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Grenfell Tower tragedy continued

999 replies

RhythmAndStealth · 14/06/2017 23:17

Twelve people confirmed dead with that number expected to rise significantly.

Many others injured and distressed. People have lost relatives, friends and their homes.

250 firefighters in attendance, risking their lives in an unprecented fire and it's aftermath. Other emergency services and NHS staff working hard to help survivors.

Many questions to be answered.

Flowers to all those affected and everyone helping.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
NinjaLeprechaun · 15/06/2017 07:50

"Even the most disadvantaged six year olds don't really understand yet that they are poor and badly housed anyway."
Yes they do. They really, really, really do.

Notreallyarsed · 15/06/2017 07:55

I do agree with you Serf that it shouldn't be put to a 6 yo bluntly, or indeed graphically, but I see no harm in educating kids that people are treated differently because of many factors which shouldn't happen, it's how you phrase it that's important.

BorisTrumpsHair · 15/06/2017 08:01

They just said on BBC that residents in other tower blocks are being reminded about fire protocol. But the point is this fire did not behave as it was expected to behave. Those who followed the stay put protocol are now all dead.

My brain is in a constant scream.

Kokusai · 15/06/2017 08:05

Which brings me to another point. I did a quick calculation earlier based Huw Edwards' figures that the average occupancy of those flats was about 5 people. That's despite half of them being 1 bed flats and half of them being 2 beds.

That sounds like distinct overcrowding to me. (About double what I'd expect). Did K&C just tear up their own rulebooks? Or did it come about through family growth and because there was nowhere to move people on to?

It is typical to use the sitting room as a bedroom so that makes them 2 and 3 bed but with no living space except the small kitchen. That is how the majority of private renters live.

Not all of these will be council tenants - some will be private and I wouldn't be surprised to have 6 or more people in the 2 (used as a 3) bed flat. Might even get 3 or 4 petiole in the sitting room bed room.

user1497480444 is being extremely proactive, or isn't extremely thick. Maybe both.

These flat were bargain basement. Have a look on right move at what you can or can't buy for £250k in London (or not, if it turns out you haven't evolved to have opposable thumbs yet).

You couldn't pay me to live there.

There will zero HNW individuals living there. I doubt there are any MC FTB because it's virtually impossible to get a mortgage on high rise council concrete construction.

Some will be in private hands but bought by BTL speculators for cash, renting out a 2 bed apartment to 6+ people.

GreenTulips · 15/06/2017 08:06

Not all social housing is occupied by poor people. Plenty of rich people have social housing

Some people sub- let their social housing

Some sub let to airbnb

This isn't about race colour or religion - It's about money

TheDowagerCuntess · 15/06/2017 08:09

So, if they're sub-letting, they're not occupying.

BorisTrumpsHair · 15/06/2017 08:10

think quarter of a million for two bedrooms.....

Sorry to shock you even further but a Quarter of a million for a two bedroom flat in zone 2 london is exceptionally CHEAP, not exceptionally expensive. Bottom of the market.

Kokusai · 15/06/2017 08:11

@Terfing

The Reddit link is really interesting, thanks

ComputerUserNotTrained · 15/06/2017 08:13

Over a decade ago when a friend of mine was in a one bed HA flat with her husband and two children (before anyone pipes in with "why did she have two kids when she didn't have room?" - she had adopted her DNs. Not that that should matter) she was told that they were adequately housed and couldn't use overcrowding to add points to her transfer application.

This was over 100 miles away from London.

It doesn't surprise me remotely that 6 or more people might live in a 2-bed flat.

Badbadbunny · 15/06/2017 08:15

It seems the powers that be are happy to chase individuals but not the big boys.

It happens in all areas. Same with tax - HMRC go after the low hanging fruit - the little people who get slammed with £100 fines for submitting a return a few days late, yet are too lazy/incompetent to go after the big tax evaders.

BigYellowJumper · 15/06/2017 08:15

greentulips Unfortunately, race and religion are inextricably linked to money in our country.

Wish it wasn't the case but it's true.

RoseAndRose · 15/06/2017 08:17

Huw Edwards may well have been wrong. There were other accounts yesterday which stated that the size of flats varied from studio to three bedroom.

What I find worrying about today's updates is how all broadcasters and some officials are talking about either 'dozens' or 'scores' of people still missing.

Now, I know from threads following other disasters that 'missing' can encompass quite a lot of circumstances. But as parts of the building still smoulder and some floors have been accessed by drone only, it might be some time before people can be accounted for.

Badbadbunny · 15/06/2017 08:17

At its core it's a question of what we as a society are willing to invest in and which price

But this case shows it wasn't a lack of money. They spend £8 million just last year on renovating that building. The problem was what they spent the money on. They prioritised looks and energy efficiency over safety. It was a failure of priority rather than a lack of money. I'm sure the tenants would have preferred to have slightly higher heating bills than to lose everything they had.

JigglyTuff · 15/06/2017 08:19

The cladding has been linked to fires in other countries according to Today. So they knew it was a fire risk to put it on the building, particularly one that tall and with only one staircase. But they did it anyway.

KoalaDownUnder · 15/06/2017 08:19

They prioritised looks and energy efficiency over safety. It was a failure of priority rather than a lack of money.

This.

They were told over and over again that the building had problems with fire safety and emergency vehicle access, and nothing was done.

SerfTerf · 15/06/2017 08:19

It doesn't surprise me remotely that 6 or more people might live in a 2-bed flat.

Actually what shocked me most was that they were housing children so high up. But I said that to a friend yesterday and she looked at me like I was from Mars. Some councils have policies in that respect, though, I'm sure they do.

RockyBird · 15/06/2017 08:19

I've not read the thread yet, please forgive me, but something's really bugging me.

The survivors, why are they having to bed down in community centres?

The community coming together is a wonderful thing but why aren't the landlords/council getting them put up in hotels and giving them an emergency fund?

I was due to be on a flight that was cancelled and BA managed to find 200+ hotel rooms at short notice plus £50 spends per person...why are the powers that be allowing survivors to sleep rough and accepting handouts? This isn't care.

I'll finish by saying the emergency services and community are amazing.

Badbadbunny · 15/06/2017 08:20

Just to add - there's a collection going round here for nappies clothes toiletries etc - which is all very noble and kind - but it grates that the council/MPs whatever don't have a contingency plan springing into action - rather than relying on individuals and charities

But what are the insurer's doing to help? The building insurance should be paying to look after those who are now homeless, to provide alternative accommodation and food/clothing etc. They should be paying out now and then arguing about whose fault it was later.

meditrina · 15/06/2017 08:20

I post this from time to time on threads on a number of subjects, and will add it here.

People really do need to become more active in local government - voting, holding councillors to account, even standing for election.

Because so many of these things for which 'government' is pilloried are actually the responsibility of the local council, and standards between different areas vary. And I think we all need to be demanding that our area matches the highest possible standards.

Badbadbunny · 15/06/2017 08:21

With what money though? It might be sold off to a private developer.

Insurance!

RoseAndRose · 15/06/2017 08:23

"The community coming together is a wonderful thing but why aren't the landlords/council getting them put up in hotels and giving them an emergency fund?"

They will be, but you can't necessarily find a hundred or so vacant properties overnight.

The community response is, I think, more newsworthy than what officials are doing. Especially as many of them will be on the grim task of trying to ascertain who was actually in the building that night. It's still, according to Fire Service Commissioner, officially in rescue phase.

RockyBird · 15/06/2017 08:26

Airlines can do it, it's not beyond the insurance/council/landlords.

Lokisglowstickofdestiny · 15/06/2017 08:27

I do wonder if that cladding is found in anyway to be non-compliant with legal requirements, the insurers won't be paying out.

KoalaDownUnder · 15/06/2017 08:28

mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-15/cladding-on-grenfell-tower-similar-to-2014-melbourne-fire/8619522

Some of you may find this article interesting (Australian news article re: the cladding in Grenfell Tower.)

BorisTrumpsHair · 15/06/2017 08:28

People are hugely traumatised. Temporary accommodation with others may well be hugely preferable to being isolated and alone in a hotel room.

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