Grenfell Tower tragedy continued

[RhythmAndStealth]

Twelve people confirmed dead with that number expected to rise significantly.

Many others injured and distressed. People have lost relatives, friends and their homes.

250 firefighters in attendance, risking their lives in an unprecented fire and it's aftermath. Other emergency services and NHS staff working hard to help survivors.

Many questions to be answered.

to all those affected and everyone helping.

It's about class and greed, not colour and religion. Why subscribe to divide and rule, which has been such a successful 'policy' for the ruling classes, since forever.

Re overcrowding living room counts as a bedroom.

The thing is meditrina and Rockybird local authorities do not have the money. Budgets have been slashed. Council tax has been frozen. Services have been cut. This is what austerity is.

Money has been spent on the refurb, but there hasn't been investment in the system. And it's the same if you think about the fall out from this - not just the emergency response - mental health services have been slashed, benefits for the disabled - if those hurt have been permanently injured from smoke inhalation - have been slashed, social housing has been slashed - there is a huge shortage and nowhere to house these people in the medium term.

In the short term, the community response, the emergency services do a great job, but that is an individual response. It's nurses coming in on their day off, it's firefighters working 12 hour shifts, and coming back to do it all over again, it'a volunteers manning kitchens to provide hot food.. But the underlying system to support has been slashed to the bone.

It's ironic that this neighbourhood was part of the massive upset of the election last week - Tories out after many years with labour winning with just a few votes, after younger and poorer voters in Kensington came out to vote in huge numbers.

Boris yes, true. It shouldn't be up to the community to provide this, however outstanding their efforts have been.

MakingMerry there's money.

Kensington in one of the wealthiest areas in uk, if not the wealthiest.

That we are talking about austerity, cuts, lack of budgets being behind this shoes just how utterly and completely fucked yo the entire system is.

It's not a problem of austerity or lack of money. It's a problem of wealth distribution, priorities, power distribution and probably corruption.

We ALL need to wake the fuck up.

The thing that is angering me today is that whilst someone should go to jail for this, how can they? The company behind it will say that safety standards were met. And the government has so relaxed building controls in recent years that 'safety standards', such as they are, were most likely met. So everyone passes the buck

I've found it very chilling that the residents knew there was a fire risk amd nothing they said made any difference. They must have felt so powerless and so unvalued.

Things should be better in this country. We should value people more.

Re overcrowding living room counts as a bedroom.

Is that really a safe standard to use for high-rise, though? It certainly wasn't the expectation of the architects. And it's concealing just how bad the housing crisis is.

It's all to easy to imagine how it happened, but maybe tolerance of private lets and the harsh overcrowding standard should be kept for low rise housing. And maybe under 11s shouldn't be allowed either. (And yes I know compulsory buy-back would cost money and more civilised overcrowding formulae would cost money before anyone points it out).

All TOO easy

There was some v good coverage of the issues on BBC Radio London 94.9 yesterday, particularly on Eddie Nestor's show from 4pm. Reporter Kurt Barling was v good, loads of info relating to recommendations after Lackanell House fire in 2009 etc. There's a listen again facility.

Whilst I love and applaud the response of the community, and wouldn't want otherwise for the survivors...

A little part of me thinks that all the overwhelming generosity and aid provided by individuals etc. is covering up for the government and councils own woeful response.

RockyBird if there is money, it's not getting to the right places. I mean what's happening is essentially what the Big Society idea is - that communities step in to provide for free the services which government used to.

But I note from the coverage, the people providing this community support do not seem to be any of the area's many millionaires. It seems like the disadvantaged are left to help the disadvantaged, while in power everyone is saying 'no, we didn't sit on this report' and trying to dodge the inevitable fall out.

I've found it very chilling that the residents knew there was a fire risk amd nothing they said made any difference. They must have felt so powerless and so unvalued.

Yep. Because they are.

Can you imagine a building full of wealthy people being fobbed off consistently like this? I think not.

Yet we have a situation where decisions are made and policies and tenders scrutinised by people who just turn up to committees and don't bother to read the documentation

Not just local politicians, but MP's and MEP's too who just vote as they're told to by the whips. Far too many local and national politicians who are simply either not capable of doing their jobs properly or who are just too lazy to do it - they're happy to get the money and the glory but not to actually do their jobs properly!

A few years ago, I cornered my local MP and asked why she had voted to approve a certain piece of legislation which was fundamentally flawed and unfair (I knew the legislation inside out as it was my job - taxation!). She hadn't a clue what she'd agreed to and admitted she hadn't read the legislation and didn't know what it actually meant, and that she'd voted for it because her party MPs had been told to. Utterly pathetic!

Oh I'm not saying it's right Serf - it's just how it is. Standards are incredibly low - and of course these issues don't affect the wealthy.

It's true that lots of councils are desperately scrabbling for money to pay for the basics, but I'd be surprised if Kensington and Chelsea fell into this category.

It's not a problem of austerity or lack of money. It's a problem of wealth distribution, priorities, power distribution and probably corruption.

Yes, this.

Austerity only ever seems to apply to the poor, marginalised and vulnerable.

You don't see the wealthy tightening their belts or going without.

Oh, I know that budgets have been slashed. They've been slashed for every council, and the variation in range and quality of services continues to exist.

You cannot just say 'oh it's the cuts' as an excuse for your council not to be up these with the best. Yes, perhaps if budgets were flush like in the 00s they would do more. But that is just not a reason to accept substandard (in comparison to how other councils do it) even when things are tight.

And the only way to pressure councils to up their standards, and to put what money they have into the areas that really are their residents' priorities.

It's almost unbelievable what we've drifted into. Because a lot of this is "normal". Then someone does something stupid or lazy or corrupt. Then later still there's a spark or a fault or a storm. And bang.

But bad though the poor maintenance is, it STARTS with letting policy and tenancy management. If you get that right, you've halved the casualty rate when the bloke down the corridor inevitably screws up.

Do you not need a certificate of fire safety and one that says property is safe, free of damp, safe gas and electrics, adequately insured etc before you can rent out a property (private as well as HB) if you don't then it needs to be brought in and councils need to be able to inspect properties and withhold payment of HB until properties are up to scratch.

Some things that have struck me over the last few hours. The story of the woman with six children who lived in a top floor flat; she escaped but when she got out of the building she only had four of her children with her. The sheer number of bodies living in a two-bedroom flat of a high-rise block worries me - this would have meant at least 7 people (and possibly a partner) were living between two bedrooms. Do fire escape plans take evacuating this number of people into account when they are creating the plans?

Again, people blaming one government - this is not a one government issue. There have been multiple failures over a lengthy period of time; parties need to come together to make sure this never happens again, as in a few months / years time, we may not have a conservative-led government. Politicians (and the public) need to stop putting onus onto other people and start thinking about what they, as an individual, or a party, can do to prevent anything like this happening again, and support those affected in this tragedy.

The fire brigade visited the flats less than a week ago according to some residents; some also claim they've never had a visit despite this seemingly being advertised as being a "fire safety day" type event. These events should become compulsory for people living and working in tower blocks.

The "stay put" advice has been proven to work; the quick spread of fire in this event meant that after people were told to stay put the fire then spread to their area of the block and they should have reassessed and left if they could (many people did). It needs to be made very clear to people that fires are dynamic and being told to stay put one minute does not necessarily mean it's the best thing to do in ten minutes time.

The spread of fire - the stay put rules need changing specifically for buildings with the same cladding (or better still, the cladding removed) immediately. I understand there are already checks taking place on buildings with similar cladding.

I am really hoping some of those missing were either not in the building, or left and have gone to friends. Really hoping.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if many of these flats are sub let - it happens a lot.

The money has been slashed, and when it is made available it's for the wrong reasons.

A bit like when the government says spending on disability benefits has gone up.

They just neglect to say that it isn't actually going on support to the disabled, it's being wasted on atos/capita trying to prevent those entitled from claiming. Also on the inevitable tribunals, most of which are won.

Same here.

The money was made available and spent on making the building pretty and 'energy efficient', but in the most cut corners way possible, so more money could be siphoned off it.

Makes me furious.

I'm shocked by the Council and Governments response (or lack thereof) to this. MPs on twitter didn't seem to be saying much although I acknowledge I don't follow too many Tory MPs and Theresa May said fuck all until gone 6pm. And utter bullshit 'if lessons are to be learned they will be'. Well, that's the result of any enquiry then 🙄

The contractors responsible for the work will now have lawyers as their very candid statement proved (not at all surprising).

The numbers being reported are scarily low too. 78 taken to hospital and 12 confirmed dead in a building that people believe had up to 600 people in. This is a fucking huge tragedy and I wondered if the apparent silence is because there are lawyers involved and genuine concerns about the actions and inaction of the various parties involved.

I'm a lawyer and I deal with cases like this. I'm not surprised by the contractor's response - their insurance company are going to be liable for millions potentially - but the lack of councillors on the ground or comments from MPs is weird.