Grenfell Tower tragedy continued

[RhythmAndStealth]

Twelve people confirmed dead with that number expected to rise significantly.

Many others injured and distressed. People have lost relatives, friends and their homes.

250 firefighters in attendance, risking their lives in an unprecented fire and it's aftermath. Other emergency services and NHS staff working hard to help survivors.

Many questions to be answered.

to all those affected and everyone helping.

Has anyone seen this in the Times? fire resistant panels costing a couple of quid more... squeezing pennies so hard, they drip blood

twitter.com/tompeck/status/875465866124697604

Knock no-one knows for sure yet, but there are theories.

Removal of firebreaks during refurbishment as you say, destroying the compartmentalisation that underpins the "stay put" fire safety advice. Installation of gas pipes in the only stairwell during that same refurbishment has also been mentioned

x post with others

first question on question time is about this.

It's called value engineering... sadly costing people lives

Yes KnockMeDown - it was here:

www.insidehousing.co.uk/business/asset-management/fire-safeguards-in-grenfell-were-temporarily-removed-during-refurbishment/7020464.article

Knockmedown has been reported that gas pipes ruptured inside the block which may account for the fire spreading inside. The gas pipes were for new heating and residents had complained that they hadn't been boxed in, in fire retardant materials, as promised (i.e. They weren't boxed in at all)

I've seen on Twitter tweets quoting The Times which has said the difference between the cost of the flammable and inflammable cladding was £2 per sheet - £22 or £24.

I've seen an article where it says Rockwool panels are not as good RE insulation, and are more complex to install. Think there was more than just panel costs driving the decision.

Material cost is one thing but different method of installation also cost money. Sadly in London we awArd contracts on 70/30 or 60/40 basis so 70%cost 30% quality

Never said I did. Dp does though. 30 years as a fireproofer/dryliner.

Cladding didn't last long here did it? Or on other buildings where it has failed.

But I am not going to derail the thread anymore by arguing with you. I won't be the only one asking where 8.7 million went. And there will be answers given when it's fully investigated. I wouldn't fancy being involved in any part of that project.

Deaths aren't being minimised. They simply haven't been able to get to most of the bodies yet. The block is structurally unsafe, and very dangerous for search teams to go into. They have talked about surveying the building and possibly shoring the building up to make it safe before search teams can go in.

They have said that they hope that deaths will not go up as high as 3 figures, which means they think it could be close to 100. They have also said that some bogies may never be identified. Tragic.

Also it has been very difficult to manage the reports of missing people (more people reported missing than they believe were actually there, one person reported missing 47 times etc) and of survivors.

After Rowland Point, the recommendation was that no tower blocks should have any gas in them. I was shocked Grenfell had. The blocks I know forbid gas installation, because it is recognised as dangerous in Tower Blocks, and has been recognised for over 50 years that it is.

Compartmentation is incredibly hard to check during a fire risk assessment. However, a gas pipe in the escape stairwell (if true) is absolutely easy to check and should have been picked up as an issue.

I'm sure responsible people will be held accountable. Inc contractors and council staff. All our tenders are on hold since yesterday morning Inc full audit on completed and on going projects. No one is taking Ny chances shame it had to come do this for councils to act

I don't think that's quite true Brasty - I just looked it up funnily enough.

"Immediately after the publication of the report the Government brought out interim measures to ensure the safety and integrity of buildings in the event of an explosion. All new buildings constructed after November 1968 and over five storeys were required to be able to resist an explosive force of 3.4×104 Pa (34 kilopascals) which is equivalent to 5 psi - the value still used as of 2014. Existing buildings were allowed to resist an explosive force of 1.7×104 Pa (17 kilopascals) which is equivalent to 2.5 psi, provided that the gas supply was removed and flats were refitted for electric cooking and heating. The gas supply was removed from Ronan Point and the other eight blocks on the estate."

The reason I wondered was the block which I lived in; it had gas pipes but no actual gas supply (there were capped off pipes in every flat). I've just checked and it was approved for construction in 1966 so it probably was being finished around the time of Ronan Point; so they basically just capped the supply.

Grenfell was slightly later going up (construction approved 1970 according to wiki), so presumably it was built to the enhanced standards

My love and condolences to the people and familes who lost their lives. Also to anyone on mumsnet effected by this terrible tragedy. Xxxxxxx

The reason people think deaths are being minimised is because the relationship between those in charge and social housing tenants has broken down to such an extent that tenants no longer trust anything they say.

Tenants (and i mean tenants everywhere) have been marginalised, dismissed lied to and bullied so many times the trust is completely gone.

Sorry I know the conversation is mostly cladding at the mo, but has anybody got any info about donations?

Everyone and their aunt who has access to a van is arranging unofficial "donation" collections to drive to london around here, and I live nowhere near london. The collections seem totally random and appear to be accepting whatever people want to donate!

I have images of centres up there dealing with mountains of superfluous stuff they don't need whilst lacking things that would actually help

Has anyone got any info that I could share? Nobody seems to be doing anything to check if what they're bringing to London is actually going to be a help or a hinderance

statisticallychallenged Okay I didn't know that. I just know about Ronan Point as I used to know people who had been involved in designing it, and I remember being told about 30 years ago by one of them, that no Tower Block should have a gas supply in it. That was certainly the case where my GF used to live. Only electric cookers. And that was constructed a bit later.

Tinseltwins they reported on the news that they have literally tonnes of donated food, clothes etc and have requested that people don't bring any more.

Tinsel - check out The RBKC website, they say not to donate any more at present.

Tinsel From the BBC

Charity asks for no more items

A charity has urged people to stop donating items for those affected by the Grenfell Tower fire.

Muslim Aid, which along with Islamic Relief has collected more than 60 tonnes of supplies, is instead asking for donations towards a relief fund.

Jehangir Malik, chief executive of Muslim Aid, said: "We are very grateful for kind donations of food, water, toiletries and other items, but these are no longer needed.

"If people wish to help, we ask that they express their generosity through donations, which will go to Grenfell disaster victims."

I didn't know either brasty - it was only because I read about the gas myself and thought "hang on, they said they had to remove the gas from my old block..." and looked it up.

We were all electric cookers and useless centrally controlled weird storage heater system!

RBKC website or Evening Standard website for monetary donations I think Tinsel