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News

Grenfell Tower tragedy continued

999 replies

RhythmAndStealth · 14/06/2017 23:17

Twelve people confirmed dead with that number expected to rise significantly.

Many others injured and distressed. People have lost relatives, friends and their homes.

250 firefighters in attendance, risking their lives in an unprecented fire and it's aftermath. Other emergency services and NHS staff working hard to help survivors.

Many questions to be answered.

Flowers to all those affected and everyone helping.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Dowser · 15/06/2017 06:12

Truly shocking as the truth is seeping out bit by bit.

This is going to lay wide open all the corruption that is going on in the country in the name of business.

I hope this is the start of exposing the seedy underbelly of dodgy deals and dodgy companies.

I firmly believe that the managers are facing a prison sentence.

From my own personal experience a care home owner went to jail because he was negligent in not providing adequate security for his dementia clients and a lady climbed out of an unlocked window to her death.

That would have been my own mother.

Mum had to go into respite while dh and I went on holiday.
I went to look at this place and the very words I said to dh when we got outside in the fresh air after breathing in noxious smells was, it want a match putting under it.

It had been an old house concerted to a care home and I find they are the worst sort. As they've often been done on the cheap.
There was a wide unsecured stair case, so anyone could have wandered to their death.
The room that my mum would have used had cheap, badly fitting carpet which had a food in it...my mum would easily have tripped over it
The lift was small, old fashioned and they couldn't get most bog standard sized chairs in there.

No ensuite bathrooms....for a person with dementia. So you could see my poor mum wanting a wee and then falling downstairs disorientated as she looked for the bathroom.

There was probably more, but I couldn't get out quick enough.
Anyway I found my mum somewhere else and while we were away a man and his wife were admitted to the care home and the lady climbed to her death.

The owner went to jail and the home closed.
Those poor people that died. Let's hope it's not in vain and every public building is put under the microscope.

MrsPeelyWaly · 15/06/2017 06:19

Black and Asian people are disproportionately poor in the UK. There are reasons for that, and saying things like 'we're all the same' makes it harder for people's voices to be heard and for people to understand why non-white people are more likely live in poverty

Im glad you addressed the replies to the 6 year old because it seemed to me there was a lot being overlooked in the replies, and perhaps deliberately, because people couldn't wait to make 'another' point.

MrsPeelyWaly · 15/06/2017 06:22

The fact that people are treated differently truly makes me feel sickened

Thats the conversation that should have taken place with the 6 year old. That poor people have more chance of dying in a towering inferno than anyone else and people who are not white have more chance of being poor.

SerfTerf · 15/06/2017 06:29

Thats the conversation that should have taken place with the 6 year old.

No, that's a conversation for a 10 year old.

Why would you alarm a small child by telling them you're "sickened" and talking about poverty and fiery deaths? It's all too big scale for them to process and too much of an emotional burden to dump on them.

If you're teaching fairness and equality in small child-scale ways at six you can get to the big scary stuff slightly later. It's a ladder of understanding.

BigYellowJumper · 15/06/2017 06:36

serf unfortunately there are six year olds who already know all about discrimination. They have no choice when it happens to them every day.

Terfing · 15/06/2017 06:51

Sorry if I'm not allowed to post to another site, but I found this interesting:

www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/6h7b28/why_would_the_refurb_company_of_grenfell_tower/

Basically, the refurb company who re-did Grenfell are deleting all of their webpages relating to Grenfell.

SerfTerf · 15/06/2017 06:55

serf unfortunately there are six year olds who already know all about discrimination. They have no choice when it happens to them every day.

Well yes, but that's not a reason to emotionally torture their luckier peers with lurid information they're too young for. And I don't think it's quite true anyway because I don't think six year olds process things that way.

Besides which, I'd rather not stereotype people of colour as poor etc in my DC's mind too young. Because that's the only message a six year old is really going to take from emotional rants. I want (wanted) them to go to school and just to relate to Daniel, Leila and Mae AS Daniel, Leila and Mae, as their friends who were kind or very good at writing stories or fond of cats or scared of heights. I very much didn't and don't want them to think ANYTHING along the lines of "darker skin= poor = scary events". It's not approach that has left my older two short of compassion. They're both passionate social activists. But I've only got two to late teens so far and two to go, one tiny so it's too soon to report complete results.

Even the most disadvantaged six year olds don't really understand yet that they are poor and badly housed anyway. Which is good. Let six year olds keep that complete lack of preconception. It's a healthy seed bed for society.

SerfTerf · 15/06/2017 06:58

Think about it. How do you teach structural racism or structural inequality to a six year old without massively oversimplifiying and emoting at them? You can't. And you risk "othering" people along the way. Im convinced its best to just st teach concepts of fairness and sharing and kindness at six.

PossumInAPearTree · 15/06/2017 07:01

There must have been some form of fires safety inspections in this building over the years. Someone official must have said it's ok not to have a central alarm, that the cladding met standards, etc.

I would therefore be surprised if anyone faces charges. They will say lessons have been learnt and change recommendations, etc.

Unless it's found that they used stuff like cheap, non approved cladding. But apparantly the contractors insist it met all relevant standards.

Notreallyarsed · 15/06/2017 07:08

To say that everyone is the same regardless of wealth, colour, faith, status and any other way of defining people just isn't true. They SHOULD be treated exactly the same way, and are all equal, but the sad fact is that they aren't. They just aren't. Google white privilege if you don't believe me.

These people were jam packed into a block of flats that wasn't fit for purpose because the ruling classes didn't give a shit about them, keeping them safe, making their homes fit to live in. Whether that's because they were poor, different races other than white (in the main) or different faiths I don't know, but to say that society doesn't make any differentiation just isn't true.

I'm not saying it's right, it's not, it's horrible and wrong. The absolutely preventable catastrophic events of the last 2 days need to be a catalyst for change. It's just a shame it's taken such an utterly horrific tragedy to mobilise people in power into action.

BigYellowJumper · 15/06/2017 07:11

serf No one is talking about torturing them with lurid detail. Nor about stereotyping people as poor. Nor about 'emotional rants'. Or about othering. That is what YOU are saying. They're talking, as you are, about explaining things in a logical, clear way. I'm not claiming to be an expert in how to do that, but children DO notice, and they do know a lot more than they let on sometimes. I KNEW we were poor when I was five and I used to try to hide the fact that we were. I can remember the shame of denying that we lived four people in one room and I can remember my mother utterly minimising that and telling me to just ignore kids who said that. It's not that simple, and the shame stayed with me for a long time.

I teach five year old children in Asia. There is one white girl in the whole school. She gets teased relentlessly. As much as I would adore the children to just accept her as a sweet girl who likes kittens and draws rainbows, that is not the case. I can stop them from bullying her, and I can encourage them to play with her, but at the end of the day, when their parents are telling them not to play with her because she is dirty/icky/poor, it's not easy to change their minds. So unfortunately, children DO notice these things and it is often instilled in their minds from their parents.

It is about explaining things in a way that children can understand, according to their age and maturity level.

KoalaDownUnder · 15/06/2017 07:15

Someone official must have said it's ok not to have a central alarm, that the cladding met standards, etc.

Of course they will. Don't worry, the buck-passing has started already: everyone will be claiming to have done their job to some applicable 'standard'.

Unfortunately, that is how people get away with blatant disregard for human life. They insert enough layers of bureaucracy between their own actions and the end result that they can evade responsibility. The buck stops with nobody, and it's vile.

SerfTerf · 15/06/2017 07:17

@BigYellowJumper

serf No one is talking about torturing them with lurid detail. Nor about stereotyping people as poor. Nor about 'emotional rants'. Or about othering. That is what YOU are saying. They're talking, as you are, about explaining things in a logical, clear way.

With respect that is EXACTLY what @MrsPeelyWaly was suggesting.

Read her second post. She is suggesting telling a six year old that "poor people have more chance of dying in towering infernos" and (here she's taking an idea from another poster, maybe you) that "The fact that people are treated differently truly makes me feel sickened"

She's suggesting saying that stuff to six year olds. That's what I was responding to.

SerfTerf · 15/06/2017 07:18

It is about explaining things in a way that children can understand, according to their age and maturity level.

Exactly that.

Notreallyarsed · 15/06/2017 07:20

Ok those terms are far too explicit for a 6 yo, but I see nothing wrong in explaining to a 6 yo who clearly has enough insight to understand and is curious that the residents of Grenfell Tower were marginalised, forgotten about and ignored while raising legitimate safety concerns. If they'd been white, HNW individuals in a position of power can you honestly say they'd have been ignored?

BigYellowJumper · 15/06/2017 07:20

I very much doubt that mrspeelywaly was suggesting using those exact words directly to a six year old, though I'll let her speak for herself.

Dailystuck71 · 15/06/2017 07:24

I have had a restless night. I'm alive though. I just can't get the thought of those people out of my mind. I hope smoke got to them before fire did. I cannot imagine the terror they faced. Waiting and waiting.

SerfTerf · 15/06/2017 07:26

If they'd been white, HNW individuals in a position of power can you honestly say they'd have been ignored?

You're talking to completely the wrong person @Notreallyarsed .

This rhetorical technique of pretending that because someone differs from you on a detail (of how much to share with a 6 year old), they're diametrically opposed to you on the main issue (about the glaring inequalities at work) is a bit boring.

I made my position perfectly clear up thread.

Crispsheets · 15/06/2017 07:27

user ridiculous comments from you. Do you live in a bubble?

SerfTerf · 15/06/2017 07:29

I doubt she has a way of paraphrasing "poor people have more chance of dying in towering infernos" that I'd be happy to share with a six year old @BigYellowJumper . But obviously we differ slightly.

Kokusai · 15/06/2017 07:32

I'm still shocked that someone thinks this was a building for the very wealthy.... no, no it wasn't!

TheDowagerCuntess · 15/06/2017 07:34

To my shame, and thanks to so much desensitisation, I haven't been moved to tears since 9/11.

But this. This has floored me.

This can't be swept under the carpet, surely.

balence49 · 15/06/2017 07:35

I'm at the other end of the uk, 250k here would buy you a very nice 4 bed detached house double drive, gardens front and back and in good area.

I don't believe someone living 8 miles away wouldn't know about housing prices

KoalaDownUnder · 15/06/2017 07:40

I don't believe someone living 8 miles away wouldn't know about housing prices

As I mentioned earlier - I live on the other side of the world, and I know more about London housing prices than that.