Grenfell Tower tragedy continued

[RhythmAndStealth]

Twelve people confirmed dead with that number expected to rise significantly.

Many others injured and distressed. People have lost relatives, friends and their homes.

250 firefighters in attendance, risking their lives in an unprecented fire and it's aftermath. Other emergency services and NHS staff working hard to help survivors.

Many questions to be answered.

to all those affected and everyone helping.

ISWYM. Well maybe this will spark a string of housing exposes. God knows they are overdue.

John Harris in the Guardian starting doing just that.................then the snap election was called.

What is not political about state owned property and social housing tenants having their concerns ignored by a local authority?! Or having a government minister ignore and fail to act on advice resulting from a fire in another tower block in London in 2009? Or MPs voting against ensuring properties were fit for habitation? Or another (landlord) MP saying it was unfair to ask house builders to install sprinklers.

They were ignored because they could be. They have no power or money to take action and now god knows how many kids, teenagers and adults are dead or homeless.

You can pretend all you like but this is political and would never have been allowed to happen if the tenants were wealthy.

HNW = high net worth individual.

And just because you consider £250k out of reach, you will just have to take it from homeowners that in London and in Kensington, it is cheap.

And here's a man who shelved, a requested review of the fire safety of the tower block.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-s-new-chief-of-staff-faced-questions-on-wednesday-over-his-role-in-a-delayed-fire-safety-a7789266.html?cmpid=facebook-post

This is a tragedy, it's heartbreaking.

I read an article decades ago - really - when I was still at school - saying "the men that build these tower blocks wouldn't live in them" - and the reason was the risk of fire.

I'm so, so sad, because it looks like various issues have led into this tragedy - the cladding, poor fire regs, the cuts to fire services, the cuts to council spending on maintenance, the fact that councils contract out to companies for maintenance. Whatever it is, it is fucking scandalous. The writing was on the wall - they were warned repeatedly that this was an accident waiting to happen.

I said to my DH that austerity, plus the relaxing of H&S regulation would lead to this type of tragedy again- in the Thatcher years these tragedies happened - Kings Cross, Zeebrugge, Bradford, etc. And it has.

Never criticise health & safety. Never talk of Health & safety "gone mad". Health & safety regulation saves lives.

User Ive just seen you live 8 miles away
You live much closer to it than I do but you are amazed by the prices?

Thanks Strummer. It seems to be saying that rain cover panels are also an issue because the water from the fire hoses just bounces off them.

Shoes "
I read an article decades ago - really - when I was still at school - saying "the men that build these tower blocks wouldn't live in them" - and the reason was the risk of fire. "

Yes, reminds me of Victirian builders profiting from back to back houses.

@Slimthistime

Was there a documentary not long ago (BBC?) about the West Hendon decant? If so, that was brazen as hell.

You can pretend all you like but this is political and would never have been allowed to happen if the tenants were wealthy.

Utter garbage. Check out the other cladding fires around the world. They aren't all in social housing put it that way.

Here it is;

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Usa4-W-Bcu0

It illuminates the political nature of these types of issue very well.

And just because you consider £250k out of reach, you will just have to take it from homeowners that in London and in Kensington, it is cheap.

I am a London homeowner, fairly nearby, and some of these flats were smart and expensive.

I'm devastated by this terrible event as much as anyone else, but lets have a full, far reaching independent investigation, and not obscure and obfuscate with wild guesses about who the victims and the baddies can be defined as, or even attempt to guess their political affiliations.

It may very well be that the housing crisis in London has lead to over crowding here, and that has contributed to the death toll.

Who knows where the faults are, with the companies who carried out renovations? with the building suppliers? With the laws about to what extent private owners have to conform to building regulations? With the council? With the fire brigade??

It could be so many things, and may well turn out to be a combination of most of them.

its just silly and nonsense to start jumping onto "its the rich bullies against the poor council tenants" before anyone knows anything, and will just cause misinformation and confusion if politicians are encouraged to do that.

• some of these flats, particularly the higher up ones were exceptionally expensive, highly sought after, privately owned residences,

think quarter of a million for two bedrooms.*

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

£250K wouldn't get you anything approcaching a decent 2 bed lat in Kensington & Chelsea.

Cheapest 2 bed in K&C on Right Move is a flat wiith only 6 years left on the lease - a bargain at £400,000.

Several 2 bed ex-council flats in the £450K-£500K mark.

The most expensive 2 bed flat in the area (NOT an ex council property) has just been reduced to a guide price of £8.75 million.

That doesn't mean the people in Grenfell were rich - they aren't. If a few flats had been sold off at thiese stupid prices it demonstrates the huge inequality in the area. It doesn't mean the rest of the residents aren't social housing residents, or that there isn't a class issue to this incident.

Stop fucking making excuses. Many thousands more live in similar conditions. People have died, we need to know why and what can be done to prevent repeat incidents, ASAP.

user you have a narrow field of vision if you consider any of those people "extremely wealthy".

I'm sure I'm xposting but quarter of a million is not expensive at all. A one-bed in the Fitzroy square development (brand new fully private) was going for £1.2-1.4. We live miles away in a 2.5 bed at close to three times that. Ex-council flats on the Netherwood estate in Kilburn (again far from Kensington) are in the range of £550-700 for a 2-3 bed.

Looking at the footage I am most fearful of the death toll over the next few days. Seeing how the fire brigade ladders only got up well below half way and the extent of the fire, imagining the smoke- there will be plenty of people on upper floors who had no chance.

Some of the broadcast footage is a bit extreme I think - I know there is a balance between newsreporting and over sensorship - but Sky at least were showing a video taken by a woman inside her flat posted on FB, calling others into her flat, massive smoke in corridor, noting the sirens below and someone above shouting we are on the 20-something floor and can't get out. It is unlikely they survived I suspect and it seemed too far to me to broadcast it.

its just silly and nonsense to start jumping onto "its the rich bullies against the poor council tenants"

I disagree - it's essential we get this kind of stuff under the media spotlight while it's here, before the media starts focusing on the next thing.

Residents in Grenfell have been pleading with the council to listen to their fire safety concerns for years. Tories have repeatedly refused opportunities to improve safety and have made cuts that have put us at risk. This should not be ignored.

and this is block had just undergone a multi million pound refurbishment.

And it seems possible that this might have happened BECAUSE of the millions spent on it, rather than because of lack of investment.

really, lets not start throwing blame around until we know who to throw it at.

I just cannot believe what has happened and have been in tears earlier on this evening watching the London News and listening to nearby neighbours recall how they saw people jump from their balconies and throw their babies out of windows for people to catch as they knew if they didn't they would die from the smoke inhalation.
My question is how could this happen ?
It has been reported that No Fire Alarm went off ?
This block housed at least 600 residents there should of been fire alarms on every floor that were regularly serviced and in working order.

The link to the news night interview is useful.

The woman working on the campaign does explain the fire hazards created by the contractors, and how the residents were threatened with legal action if they resisted having the work done.

The woman described them as poor and ordinary people.

I think most of us would find it hard to find the money to fight a legal case to stop contractors entering our homes if we believed they were creating hazards.

I disagree - it's essential we get this kind of stuff under the media spotlight while it's here

but it is possible that a huge ignorant furoray just directs the spotlight in totally the wrong direction, and we miss the real causes.

All this talk about not brushing it under the carpet risks brushing it under the carpet, because people think they have a political point to make, well before knowing if they actually do or not.

The campaigner on news night also said the reason the residents couldn't legally stop the contractors from doing work they considered dangerous was because they could not afford it due to cuts to legal aid.

There'll be an Inquiry and everyone will pass the buck. The government, local authorities, the companies they contract out to. It's starting already.

Interestingly, Newsnight has lead with challenging questions.

Challenging questions about both the political underpinnings and technical aspects of this tragedy. They featured issues of inequality and also talked about the cladding, absence of sprinklers etc.

The flagship current affairs programme of the national broadcaster think this issues are worth airing, so it seems to me that they are issues very much in the public arena and the public interest.

As mentioned upthread, part of the horror around today's events is linked to people realising that review of fire regulations hasn't happened, despite an inquest into the loss of 6 lives in a tower block fire in 2009 and despite the parliamentary group on fire safety pressing for review for over a decade.

I also wondered about overcrowding as the news are saying 400-600 people but only 120 flats, most were 1 or 2 bedrooms and some must have been single occupancy so some flats must have housed well over 6 people.

I think the point is that if a rich man complains about these sorts of things then he gets listened to or at least has the option of moving out. These people complained a lot about what was going on and nobody cared.

They'll find housing for them but I bet it'll be shit and they'll be stuck there. I don't believe for a second these people will be well taken care of and given a nice place to stay.