Grenfell Tower tragedy continued

[RhythmAndStealth]

Twelve people confirmed dead with that number expected to rise significantly.

Many others injured and distressed. People have lost relatives, friends and their homes.

250 firefighters in attendance, risking their lives in an unprecented fire and it's aftermath. Other emergency services and NHS staff working hard to help survivors.

Many questions to be answered.

to all those affected and everyone helping.

Thanks for the correction Nicknacky.

"a complete lack of alarm system building wide, "

Residents have complained that, alarm testing was done when most people were at work, and many many residents say they didnt hear it yesterday. Some footage does record the alrms going off, so its way too early to speculate what issues or what damage there was with the alarm system.

Thanks @CoteDAzur

'But they didn't know this wasn't properly compartmentalised and the advice was wrong until it was too late and the escape routes were blocked.'

Bunny, the whole situation is based on trust. Every part of the system works on the basis that the other parts of the system are trustworthy. So, each part of the system is based on...

1. Legislation on building regulations is correct (it isn't. the previous inquest has been ignored).
2. The building regulations are enforced (they're not. Very little is done about shoddy contracting)
3. The advice given by the fire service is correct.
4. Building caretakers follow the advice of the fire service not their employers (they didn't, according to the residents).
5. The residents follow the given advice (why would you, when you're being lied to?)

So maybe the protocol should change, but no protocol is going to work if the rest of the system can no longer be trusted. You can't devise any kind of sensible evacuation protocol when it is based on a series of unknown unknowns because the building regulations have all become useless. You can no longer predict what will happen to create a useful protocol.

"Someone should have engaged their brain and told those poor people to get the hell out."

They did, once they realised the severity. I understand loud speakers were used at ground level, but any speculation as to the fire service linking up with call handlers, etc and the 'live' advice given via the phines, would be merely more speculation at this time.

Rhythm and Stealth, I agree, but the fire wardens would have to be completely independent of the landlord/building owners.

Someone should have engaged their brain and told those poor people to get the hell out.

Exactly this!!!

Cotedazur - they clearly didn't read page 15.

"But they didn't know this wasn't properly compartmentalised and the advice was wrong until it was too late and the escape routes were blocked.'"

So you believe nobody in the emergency services noticed that they were getting calls from frantic people on different floors of the building? Really?

10 fire stations closed, 552 firefighters cut.

Apparently completely irrelevant here as the first fire engines arrived within 6 minutes and pretty quickly after that, there were 40 engines and 200 firefighters. So I don't think delays or shortage of firefighters is the cause, but I'm sure a public enquiry will review that aspect.

From reports, there are several other factors:-

Lack of access for fire engines - only one narrow access road which was regularly blocked with illegally parked cars and trades/delivery vans.

Dry riser in the building for whatever reason couldn't be used by the fire fighters.

Ventilation/damper system for whatever reason either couldn't be used or didn't work.

Fire started at a low enough level to be fought from the ground by ladders, aerial platform and even water jets, but for whatever reason it spread out upwards out of the reach of firefighters on the ground.

I fear for other people living in high rises with this cladding.

The more I read, the more it looks like this was "rabbit in the headlight" syndrome, in that those in charge just couldn't cope with an unexpected set of circumstances and a rapidly changing situation. It does look as if there are parallels with Hillsborough in some respects.

rhythm Thank you for that, I emailed my MP.

"It does look as if there are parallels with Hillsborough in some respects.' I thought this too.

I think we accuse the fire service of Rabbit in the Headlight syndrome we should maybe wait for a factual investigation to take place into what happened.

The fire service risked their lives last night and this morning.

I've lived in a tower block with a very similar structure and layout

I've also worked in several large office buildings and been the fire warden for some.

There are huge differences
-my current office has doors at the end of each section leading to separate exits and stairwells
-everyone is awake, alert, up and dressed.
-there are no children at all, and very few adults who are not able bodied

• the stairwells are wider

-there are sprinklers

• there's trained fire wardens and a well practiced still

My current building has phased evacuation alarms with intermittent -get ready- in some sections whilst others are solid - evacuate.

The tower block I lived in had a single stairwell with 3 turns between every floor. It was also narrow - two people could pass single file but not by much. Add in firefighters uniforms, tanks and hoses and it was difficult to pass at all.

The two situations aren't comparable and need different approaches. 500 people running against the fire fighters in a dark smoky stairwell is in no way comparable to an orderly daytime evacuation of an office block.

On this occasion the advice cost lives, but it is most likely because of massive flaws with the cladding, the fire safety equipment, or probably both. It has doubtless saved numerous lives in the past by avoiding dangerous stampedes.

I work in a 70s tower regularly in the 23rd floor.

I will make two comments. The tower I work in has had two fires that I know of. One was on the 21st floor. Both were contained by compartmentalisation. We have a phased evacuation strategy that relies on compartmentalisation. No one was injured in either fire.

The building I work in has inadequate lift capacity so I fairly frequently walk down the stairs from 23rd floor to ground. I am fit and well and it still takes me around 10minutes to do so and makes me a little dizzy (lots of double backing on self) when it is well lit and I'm calm. The thought of doing that potentially in the dark, with lots of smoke, with distressed children or helping an elderly relative when you are scared and panicky is unimaginable.

We need to wait the inquiry but there have been numerous contained tower block fires in London (Deny Cottton herself said they weren't unusual) but a cluster of things seem to have gone wrong here: faulty dry riser, failed compartmentalisation, cladding that torched.

PM orders a public Inquiry into this. I dare say she has been briefed of just how high the death toll will probably reach.

There was a long item about the fire on the Radio 4 midnight news this morning. A fire specialist said:

"Buildings of this height are not designed for everyone to evacuate out all in one go."

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08tbf40#play (about 12 minutes in)

It reminded me of the Titanic: not provisioned with enough lifeboats for everyone on board because the ship was supposed to be unsinkable and therefore they wouldn't need to evacuate everyone at the same time.

User - I'm more bothered by the construction company who clearly not read page 33, about the need to provision cavity barriers inside the cladding. If they had, fire would not have travelled up through the cladding like a flash.

They also clearly have not cared for the various parts that explain hiw fire resistant each element has to be.

Reinforced concrete buildings don't go up like a torch in minutes. Flammable material was used in this building and necessary provisions that would contain the fire or at least slow its spread were not put in place.

From twitter

Polly Neate @pollyn1

Girls from my 13yo's school who lived in #GrenfellTower lost everything and still turned up for GCSEs next day in night clothes

Currently Chief Executive of Women's Aid, going to Shelter to be Chief Executive soon

The titanic was designed to have enough lifeboats for everyone on board. The White Star Line decided to remove most of them.

Yeah. A tower block near me had a flat fire at least 12 floors up a few years ago but it didn't really spread out of the flat where the fire started.

I'm no fan of Theresa May but I think she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. This tragedy is the result of a catalogue of failures over many years, the responsibility of multiple Governments/Council officials.

I thought "private visits" to scenes of tragedy/crime like this are pretty standard. It's to avoid causing problems for those working on site - the last thing the fire brigade need is the PM followed by 20-odd journalists getting in their way.

Rhythm - God bless those girls.