Grenfell Tower tragedy continued

[RhythmAndStealth]

Twelve people confirmed dead with that number expected to rise significantly.

Many others injured and distressed. People have lost relatives, friends and their homes.

250 firefighters in attendance, risking their lives in an unprecented fire and it's aftermath. Other emergency services and NHS staff working hard to help survivors.

Many questions to be answered.

to all those affected and everyone helping.

user " Maybe buildings should appoint fire wardens on each floor or something."

I don't know how you'd get volunteers. I have one neighbour who works three jobs. Two or three jobs is common if you're not wealthy. I have the odd cup of tea with him and he's basically a ghost. I work at home a fair bit and am often the only person around.

also what happens about heavy sleepers? I'm a light sleeper but one issue with the fire here was that people didn't hear the alarm or the neighbours banging on their door - and these flats are tiny, I could throw a pen and hit my front door (I'm sitting on my bed typing).

Six questions for the fire investigation

In a properly compartmentalised residential building 'you' don't need to get out, the people in the flats immediately adjacent to the fire need to get out, without risk of a crush from a huge number of people who are at very little risk all trying to evacuate at once.

But they didn't know this wasn't properly compartmentalised and the advice was wrong until it was too late and the escape routes were blocked.

I think at the very least, they should evacuate the top floors first, solely as a precaution, floor by floor, so it can be done in a controlled manner without stampedes etc. That way, if it gets out of control, the remaining people not yet evacuated would be in the lower floors with more chance of rescue via ladders/platforms etc.

It wasn't ignored. Threatening residents with legal action is not ignoring it.

Removing vehicles from the emergency services access route for the fire inspection visit and then putting them back afterwards is not ignoring it.

It's deliberately putting people's lives at risk.

"I have never seen a fire like this in my career" Denny Cotton, London Fire Brigade Commissioner

also, in terms of people getting out - the whole building seems to have gone up so fast, if you woke up to that you'd just get out - even if you knew the fire on was floor 6 and you were on floor 24, if you saw flames licking up the building, you'd leave.

my mother has rung me 3 times, she's going to ask me to move, I can tell!

kirinm - where the hell are you getting that notion from?

I'm blaming the lack of CORRECT PROCEDURE. The guy was told his flat would be secure and a fire contained once he shut the door - there were two witnesses who said they had a visit from the fire brigade just a week earlier and they were told that the fire door would contain them for 30 minutes and to stay put. They ignored the advice in the event and lived to tell the tale with the warning that if they had heeded the advice they would probably be dead.

As for flammable building materials, a complete lack of alarm system building wide, nothing seemingly working and it IS fucking political. It's very much political!

Rhythm and Stealth, it sounds like an excellent idea. But then the protocols would become similar to moving people out of hotels etc, or even hospitals, not to office blocks.

user Whilst the idea of mandatory training is all very well and good it doesn't take into account visitors to the block, not to mention any subletting/children/people with learning disabilities etc.

There is no easy answer.

One thing for sure this hellish shambles will not and must not be another 'hillsborough'. We are not going wait for 30 years for the truth to come out. The blame cannot be hidden from us and the evidence will be all over social media. Ordinary people do at least have this rather than relying on the press and news agencies.

User, then maybe when you were a fire warden, people should have ignored your advice, on the basis that some kind of shoddy fire hazard not foreseen by you the trained official crops up.

Because that's basically the situation the fire service and the residents were in.

user1496484020 seems to think it's all the fault of the poor man whose flat is said to have spread the fire.

We don't know yet what caused the fire and we certainly don't know how any one of us would respond in such a situation. Stop the victim blaming user1496484020 it's distasteful. Even if this guy caused the fire, it should not have spread the way it did and residents' concerned were ignored by the council and by the contractors. This guy is a victim. Imagine what he must feel like, stop laying the blame on him and what he should of done.

MPs to quiz minister over fire Worth contacting your MP to ask them to participate

Offices are built entirely differently to residential. They are not designed to compartmentalise fire. There is no comparison whatsoever to procedures within office blocks and residential blocks. Its hugely upsetting, but this is not helpful.

It was unprecedented and hopefully lessons will be learned.

Lessons are only learned with proper acceptance. We must have a full public enquiry here. Not separate enquiries behind closed doors. If we aren't careful, it could end up another Hillsborough with victims waiting decades for proper answers and changes to avoid a repeat. Theresa May needs to announce a full public enquiry today!

Thread has moved on a long way, but last night someone said in relation to planning and building regs approval for projects like this refurbishment: we have a situation where decisions are made and policies and tenders scrutinised by people who just turn up to committees and don't bother to read the documentation In this case it wasn't even that - it looks from the RBKC website as if the application wasn't even heard by the council planning committee, the decision was delegated to a planning officer. So a project involving £millions and hundreds of people's homes, in a building with known safety issues, wasn't important enough for councillors to take a look at.

"This flat fire should abslutely have been contained... The call handlers advice, should have been the advice that saved these people, as it has thousands and thousands of times before."

But the fire was NOT contained. It visibly spread to nearly all of the building IN MINUTES.

So it was clear from very early on that "stay in your home and wait" was the wrong advice in this situation. Someone should have engaged their brain and told those poor people to get the hell out.

Denny Cotton is amazing.

I have just been overcome with emotion watching her speak in that clip.

I'm not blaming the guy - he clearly hadn't a clue what to do in the event of a fire. Clearly I'm trained so know what to do, but Joe soap doesn't and that too needs to be looked at. I've already stated that the stay put policy and advice that a fire would be contained gave a false sense of security. To him in his initial reaction and to other residents and firefighters.

Posted on another thread, article in Metro

metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/boris-johnson-slashed-londons-fire-services-in-2014-and-told-rival-politician-to-get-stuffed-6708609/

10 fire stations closed, 552 firefighters cut.

Just read that there were 25 minutes between residents noticing the burning plastic and the first call to the fire brigade. This may not be accurate as there was probably some confusion; possibly confusion that led to delay of the fire brigade being called earlier too.

Death toll has rose to 17. It's going to get much higher unfortunately:(

I agree that the Fire Commissioner is amazing and is showing a real personal side as well as coming across as so professional but can I point out her name is Dany Cotton, not Denny.

Sylvia whatever the protocols need to be. My point is, we don't expect large numbers of people to be able to self-organize during fires in other large buildings containing hundreds of people, just residences.

Large buildings, large numbers of people=complex process

If anyone is interested, these are the fire safety regulations for residential buildings currently in place.