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Original poster

Grenfell Tower tragedy continued

999 replies

RhythmAndStealth · 14/06/2017 23:17

Twelve people confirmed dead with that number expected to rise significantly.

Many others injured and distressed. People have lost relatives, friends and their homes.

250 firefighters in attendance, risking their lives in an unprecented fire and it's aftermath. Other emergency services and NHS staff working hard to help survivors.

Many questions to be answered.

Flowers to all those affected and everyone helping.

OP posts:
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5
CoralDreamscapes · 15/06/2017 11:22

As for packing a bag, if you believe that the fire will be contained to your flat or at worst, your floor, why would you not pack a bag?

No one should believe anything about fire; it is unpredictable.

It worries me that people are still saying why wouldn't you pack a bag in these circumstances. You alert people first. Then if you want to pack a bag, do it. But give other people a chance to get to safety.

CoralDreamscapes · 15/06/2017 11:23

MelinaMercury Yes, Dry risers - for some reason they were unusable in this instance, but the building did have them.

Nananap · 15/06/2017 11:23

That type of cladding has been used in buildings with other fires. Including the two in Dubai.

The stay put policy should work. The single flat should contain the fire long enough for the fire brigade to get in to it. It was how it was designed. But the renovations have obviously fucked that right up

MelinaMercury · 15/06/2017 11:25

Presumably he alerted the fire brigade who told him to leave his flat. Others called and were told to stay in their flats.

Because that is what the protocol was.

Should he have ran 24 stories banging on every door to alert them, sending everyone into a panic? An even like this was always going to be catastrophic in those circumstances.

ShushAlexa · 15/06/2017 11:26

"Seriously, nothing she does or says right now will help.

She wouldn't be able to do right for doing wrong. "

Oh I disagree. Angry

Theresa May just needs to be a human being relating to other human beings who have just experienced the worst kind of disaster in the country she governs. She needs to speak to them to show that the victims are human beings worthy of being considered. She doesn't need to be right or wrong. It's about being a human being first and then a politician.

It's a snub of this community, that's what it is.

BigYellowJumper · 15/06/2017 11:26

coral I think the better advice is just to get out. No bags. There is nothing worth saving more than your life.

mrspeelywaly In my opinion, she should take the risk of being vilified. If she had some strength of character, she would take that risk. She is the leader of this country - she is meant to LEAD, not hide.

BossyBitch · 15/06/2017 11:26

Whatever you do, don't read the comments on that DM article - vile race baiting in full swing over there (which shouldn't come as a surprise seeing as we're talking about the DM here, but still)!

It's enraging! Divide et impera! Just find some poor sod or other or an individual company somewhere for people to get angry at and make a bet on which member of the mob is going to come out on top while you keep on making policies that kill!

I have no words at all for how incredibly sickened I am by all of this!

MelinaMercury · 15/06/2017 11:26

Thank you Coral, i'd never even heard of a dry riser until yesterday so wasn't really sure what they did.

MotherOfBleach · 15/06/2017 11:28

Coral, the people on his floor did get to safety. Did you expect him to run the entire height of the building alerting people? People who would, given that there'd have been little smoke at the start and no alarms, likely have ignored him and went back to bed.

Again, people died because of a catastrophic failure in building management, not because a man packed a bag.

I'd also assume he'd have phoned the fire services before doing anything. If it was so wrong of him not alert his neighbors immediately, why did the fire service not instruct him to do so.

sashh · 15/06/2017 11:28

In the event of fire, time is of the essence. So no alert for anyone is reprehensible. If they were alerted immediately they would have gotten out with minimal casualties.

My father was on a committee when the council housing became social housing in his town. I helped draft a response to the company who wanted to house disabled people on upper floors of blocks. We couldn't get ti through on fire safety, we got it through by arguing some blocks do not allow washing machines on upper floors and that it was virtually impossible for a wheel chair user to use the local laundry.

CoralDreamscapes · 15/06/2017 11:32

People on the floors above him perished. The time he spent packing his bag may have actually saved their lives had people in the building been alerted earlier.

BeesOnTheWing · 15/06/2017 11:32

There is something called a dry riser: Google a picture and you've probably seen the access points in tall buildings.

I think fire brigade couldn't use it here. If so it's another one of the cluster of issues.

mrsglowglow · 15/06/2017 11:36

Teresa May at the very least needs to roll her sleeves up and have contact with this community. Thing is she must (if she has any humility) be embarrassed at the thought of entering the hospitals, talking to the brave firefighters and police and the working class community as it is her government that takes so much of the blame.

MelinaMercury · 15/06/2017 11:36

Again, how could he possibly have alerted all of those on higher floors? The lifts were not in use (apparently) and he was probably told just to get out by the fire brigade alerting his neighbours in close proximity because there SHOULD have been no chance of it spreading like that.

That wasn't his call, that would've been what he was advised by fire operatives based on protocol.

Justaboy · 15/06/2017 11:37

There's a bit of very simple fire safety advice which is;

GET OUT - GET THE FIRE BRIGADE OUT - STAY OUT!

However it isn't always the best advice for tower blocks.

In this very unforeseen one it would have been but otherwise not.

As to taking bags I'd prefer to be alive and stark bollock naked, all that I own and posses can be replaced.

slithytove · 15/06/2017 11:37

I've just watched that horrendous Facebook video of those stuck on the 23rd floor. Devastating.

Could rescue helicopters not have been used to airlift people to safety?

Badbadbunny · 15/06/2017 11:37

Dry risers - for some reason they were unusable in this instance, but the building did have them.

There was also a modern ventilation system designed to draw in clean air and expel smoke etc, to be operated by fire officers - two choices, one to be operated via a central control panel, the other to be operated on a floor by floor basis, both by fire officers. For some reason, it appears that this was unusable too!

We also have another fire fighting issue. The fire started on the 4th floor and fire engines were there within 6 minutes. The normal ladders on fire engines extend to 4 floors, their jets reach over 4 floors from ground level, and the aerial/hydraulic platform wouldn't have been far behind the first engines. For whatever reason, they don't seem to have been able to control the fire whilst it was relatively low down and reachable. Some suggest that there was a single access road often barely passable due to illegal parking, delivery/maintenance vans, etc., so the fire engines simply couldn't get close enough soon enough. That's another aspect to be investigated.

Sounds to be a catalogue of reasons as to why it spread so quickly and the planned fire fighting methods didn't happen. We need a full public inquiry - not just the usual whitewash internal enquiries. Let's hope we get it soon enough and it's not a repeat of the Hillsborough fiasco/cover up!!

kirinm · 15/06/2017 11:39

News reports suggest the fire started on the 2nd floor. The residents had complained about power surges and the fire service experienced some delays because of gas services in the area. It seems quite probable it's nothing to do with the fridge.

MotherOfBleach · 15/06/2017 11:41

People on the floors above him perished. The time he spent packing his bag may have actually saved their lives had people in the building been alerted earlier

How?

How could the poor man have run twenty odd floors, knocked on sixty odd doors in the time it took to toss some clothes into a bag? A bag which, for all we know, was packed already. It could have been his gym bag, ffs.

There is fault to find here, it does not lie with that poor man.

user1496484020 · 15/06/2017 11:41

It seems precious minutes were lost when the fire had a chance to be contained to be honest.

I genuinely think the advice to stay put was very much responsible for giving residents a false sense of security.

It seems neighbour alerted woman at 12.50 but 999 wasn't called until 4 minutes later. Plus whatever amount of minutes he was faffing about packing clothes before he alerted his neighbour. I'm not blaming him, I presume it was drilled into him that the fire would be contained in his flat so he didn't appreciate the urgency.

Badbadbunny · 15/06/2017 11:41

People on the floors above him perished. The time he spent packing his bag may have actually saved their lives had people in the building been alerted earlier.

People on upper floors were told by the fire service (firefighters in the building AND control room phone operators) to stay in their flats!

MelinaMercury · 15/06/2017 11:42

As I say, i'm sorting a grab bag out today and hanging it on my bedroom door so that if (touch wood) something like this should happen I have the chance to salvage necessities and go. If I forgot it wouldn't be the end of the world as long as we got out safely but it would make life a little easier if I didn't need to worry about the kids freezing or not having a basic first aid kit to help out until professionals arrived.

Would I pack one at that point, hell no. But no harm in having a backup plan.

thereallochnessmonster · 15/06/2017 11:42

if the fire had started on the upper floor and if the news is to be believed it is almost impossible for fire equipment to reach that height then what would happen?

is there equipment they can carry through the inside or would it just have to rage on?

Blocks of flats have dry risers, enabling firemen to fight fires from inside the block. That way, they can get right up to the top floor. They just can't fight higher fires from outside.

I don't want to speculate, but it sounds like a perfect storm of several things going wrong.

Unfortunately, for some reason the dry risers didn't work at Grenfell Tower.

thereallochnessmonster · 15/06/2017 11:44

I genuinely think the advice to stay put was very much responsible for giving residents a false sense of security.

The reason people are told not to evacuate their flats in a blaze is that they don't want 500 people all trying to get down the stairs at once - especially when fire fighters carrying equipment are trying to get up.

That would result in crush injuries and panic.

If flats are properly fire-proofed, that would be the best advice.

user1495451339 · 15/06/2017 11:45

I think it is wrong to blame the man who owned the flat where the fire started. He was following procedure to tell people on his floor to leave. How could he have predicted the cladding catching fire like that? He may have packed a bag as he believed it was a small fire and everyone was led to believe that fires could be contained to their flat. I actually think anyone would have packed a few things as the fire was small initially as the woman in the article said so he probably believed it was only his flat at risk.

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