Grenfell Tower tragedy continued

[RhythmAndStealth]

Twelve people confirmed dead with that number expected to rise significantly.

Many others injured and distressed. People have lost relatives, friends and their homes.

250 firefighters in attendance, risking their lives in an unprecented fire and it's aftermath. Other emergency services and NHS staff working hard to help survivors.

Many questions to be answered.

to all those affected and everyone helping.

I'm not blaming him - I specifically used the word "may".

It's really important that people are alerted early on in any situation involving a fire. This is really basic fire safety.

Residential floors begin a couple of floors up. Would that explain 2nd floor report?

I have to say I think David Lammy MP is premature and irresponsible in demanding corporate manslaughter charges and arrests at this point!

It may well be that all the building regs were followed on that cladding for example but that the regs are wrong. Safety Tests don't always replicate reality.

It's just insane that there wasn't some way for him to activate a central alarm. I can't recall a large building where there HASN'T BEEN those red boxes that you break the glass to activate whole building fire alarm.

May should be fucking embarrassed by her, and her ilk , in the way they have treated the NHS, Police and Fire services in the past! But most politicians, all over the world, are shameless.
There have been 2 huge fires here in Cape Town, one in Hout Bay Area and the other in Knysna, which have destroyed the homes of rich and poor, black and white, and the outpouring of help and care has been brilliant. Everyone in it together, helping each other, just as people have in London. The worst of times often brings out the best in people.

It's really important that people are alerted early on in any situation involving a fire. This is really basic fire safety.

I'm still wondering how you expected him to alert people on higher floors?

It seems a lot went wrong i.e lack off access for firetrucks, advise given to stay inside, cladding used that effectively acted as kindling, power surges that were not addressed, fire alarms that did not work etc.

A bloke packing a bag made zero difference to the overall outcome.

User I have heard the argument is that whole building alarms would go off so often they would be disabled.

And the safety rationale is that the flats are contained and so it's safer to stay put and evacuate on fire brigade advice than have a free for all on an emergency stairwell.

What do you mean? How they [council tenants] are viewed??

As scum, as troublemakers who should be grateful for a roof over their heads regardless of the condition of that roof.

The perception of council tenants, especially in London (I'm not London), is a weird mix of them being feckless and pathetic, but also jammy and getting "free housing". Oh,and they are thick too, because they haven't the wherewithal to get themselves a mortgage.
And, yes, they should be grateful. Even though social housing was built for ordinary working people.
I am a council tenant, and when I was raging on this thread yesterday MsManagmentCompanyApologist said I seemed "alienated".
. I expect she thinks we are all "vulnerable" too, or some other bullshit headtilt euphemism.

The housing crisis has caused this really bizarre situation, this two tier society (or 3 tier if you factor in private renters) and it's at it's worst in London. So, in areas where Saudi billionaires buy houses for millions and leave them empty most of the time, the non-rich people living in council blocks right in their midst are seen as luckier than they deserve to be.
Even when they are living in dangerously overcrowded situations. London boroughs want these people OUT. They have been buying people out of their tenancies for years. They are pulling down blocks and shipping tenants miles away, because they can make £££££ on the land.
Council tenants are, and have been seen for years as in the way, holding back gentrification, un-productive and lazy.

And that is why HA management companies and housing contractors are able to do their dodgy deals, cutting corners and disregarding what is best for the actual tenants-because who is going to stop them?

For the record, I am not remotely alienated. I am ANGRY.

I've worked as a fire warden in a 13 storey office block. Advice was to evacuate IMMEDIATELY. Walk calmly and quickly to the stairs and get out. Those immediate first five minutes are crucial. No such thing as staying put. In any case, fire doors seal with the heat, so how the fuck people could be rescued behind a sealed door I don't know.

hear hear ifnot

User the explanation is the design rationale of the building. (The stay put protocol had been explained already on this thread and isn't unusual.)

Then this building had massive changes retrofitted..

obviously this thread has moved on but as I was saying last night, when there was a fire in my block, 2 doors down, during the investigation I was asked why I had ignored the official advice, which was stay in your flat.

who the fuck stays in their flat when the smoke is coming through the door gap and you hear screaming and the fire alarm?!

I told the investigators at the time that I was baffled by the advice but they seemed to be baffled by me being baffled.

re the way council tenants are seen, there's a social housing block opposite and when i bought, people at my work said "oh why are you buying opposite that council block?" - like they had no recognition that the council block occupants are just regular decnet people. This was years ago but I presume rags like the DM have been spreading poison about social housing occupants for 20 years+?

Canary wharf tower has the same policy apparently. Evacuate only the fire floor and floor above. Even my uni has the fire alarm in separate parts so only one part of a connected building goes off initially.

User, the rules are different for office blocks than for residential buildings because offices have the structure to train fire wardens.

slithytove It would be very very difficult to get a helicopter rescue effected. You'd need something they use for sea rescue with and then you'll need the winch man with breathing apparatus and a much longer line than they normally use to get above the rising smoke.

Plus the down draft of the chopper would not help matters either.

The only useful thing may have been a large high reach mobile crane, very few around and very difficult to rig and that takes some time.

I think people should brace themselves for the death toll to be much much higher. 120 flats with an estimated 400-600 inhabitants according to the Telegraph.

I have to say I think David Lammy MP is premature and irresponsible in demanding corporate manslaughter charges and arrests at this point!

Bees, very sadly it looks as though a personal friend of David Lammy's has died in the fire. He sounded very emotional on that report and I think his comments are understandable even if you don't agree with them.

user this is bothering me about the whole thing as well. The advice to stay put was wrong and did cost lives. I've just read an interview with a dad who went back in to save a child who became unconscious on the stairwell as the mum and other child got out, incredibly brave man. However, he was alerted at 2.30am, so an hour and a bit after it started. There was plenty of time in that hour and a half for them to start leaving in an orderly fashion. Even people who were disabled/difficulty with mobility would have stood a better chance on the stairs. I cannot understand the 'stay put' advice, and at what point they realised 'stay put' was wrong and started getting out. Everyone that ignored that advice are the ones that probably lived. The man who got out was on the 21st floor by the way, so there was time, even within the first hour to evacuate to really quite high up.

This is so sad, reading that tale, and he is one of the 'lucky' ones.

Well when I was being trained, fire doors were in place to contain the FIRE within a contained area while people evacuated, not to contain individuals inside from a fire outside the door. The door would seal anyway, so no way in for firefighters unless the door burnt down by which time anyone inside would be dead.

My training was in Ireland about 20 years ago though. And it was for a 13 storey building.

Foureyes, so what happens in a building where the compartmentalisation works properly?

Say there's an elderly couple in a flat on the tenth floor, and they are struggling to evacuate. The flat next to them is on fire. All the people who are in the rest of the building, who don't actually need to evacuate, all rush for the stairs.

The elderly couple can't rush for the stairs in that situation. The fire fighters can't get up the stairs, because of all the people who are not in danger coming down.

The fire spreads because the fire fighters can't get up in time. The fire spreads and people needlessly die.

Also, as that horrific FaceTime video shows, the smoke was coming through the door before the heat sealant on the door kicked in.

A heck of a lot to be learned from this shambles.

User, you were trained to evacuate an office. The rules are totally different for a residential block.

Slim I'd do the same.

But I can see in a tall tower, designed to be compartmentalised and with one staircase, it would be considered more dangerous to have all residents evacuate DOWNSTAIRS while the fire brigade are trying to go UP and fight the fire.

I now realise that I have seen over the years single flats burned out with the rest of the block left untouched. Just something I took for granted tbh.

Sylvia, you would hope firefighters, like police, would shout orders at people to 'stay on the right' or something. In the first couple of minutes you stand a heck of a lot more of a chance of getting out.

Ok point taken about Lammy personal connection but he is not speaking as an individual but as an MP. It's wrong imho.

Sylvia - the way fires works doesn't change depending on whether a building is residential or commercial. Evacuation procedures should be the same.