Grenfell Tower tragedy continued

[RhythmAndStealth]

Twelve people confirmed dead with that number expected to rise significantly.

Many others injured and distressed. People have lost relatives, friends and their homes.

250 firefighters in attendance, risking their lives in an unprecented fire and it's aftermath. Other emergency services and NHS staff working hard to help survivors.

Many questions to be answered.

to all those affected and everyone helping.

bigyellowjumper - yes, that's what I said, prosecutions. I would also like to see people hit where it hurts too though, eg the company directors of the various firms involved, eg the cladding firm, if it is shown that they cut corners or similar. Leaves a bit of a bad taste really these people who have made millions from working for local councils and HAs living in their large gated detached houses while families lived in this deathtrap.

I don't know how all sprinkler systems work, but ours needs a secondary water source in the form of 2 huge water tanks to supply one smallish warehouse.

You can run a sprinkler off the mains if the pipes are in place to provide sufficient pressure and flowrate of water. And, of course, provided that you are in an area where the water supply is very reliable.

A sprinkler system or a fucking alarm system at least might have given the residents in the higher floors a chance to evacuate. As it was, they were oblivious to what was happening until far too late.

*sprinkler system, not just a single sprinkler!

You can run a sprinkler off the mains if the pipes are in place to provide sufficient pressure and flowrate of water. And, of course, provided that you are in an area where the water supply is very reliable.

Trouble with using mains for such a big building is that there'd be little water/pressure left in the hydrants for the fire service.

In the end nobody has ownership of the housing service. Nobody takes pride in it and you end up with a "not my department guv" culture.

This is so true Serf. I'm a Housing Officer for a large LA. I'm also a tenant with the same LA. For all of it's faults, I'm proud, and my colleagues are too, of the service we provide and continue to try to provide in what are difficult times.

I don't hold with all this bollocks about the difficulty the LA has of providing accommodation or at least having some procedure in place. They should have a plan in place for exactly this type of scenario. They should have trained for it. We do.

I'm also unsure about how a sprinkler system would work in a multiple occupancy building. We get called to fire alarms all the time. Thankfully it's mostly false alarms - burnt toast etc. How would a sprinkler system distinguish between this and an actual fire?

The building is no longer safe for the fire crews to search inside.
I can't imagine how painful it is waiting for news on a loved one.

A Labour MP has said that he suspects that the death toll might reach the hundreds

It has to be a small private visit by TM, there are a lot of angry people there who will be very offended by her presence. Someone interviewed on the news pretty much said there would be riots, just before they said her visit had been private.

Placemarking to read later ...

I think it was the speed that this fire took hold that meant people in higher floors didn't stand a chance, even if alarms had gone off , they had no way of escape.

I'm appalled reading Helenas posts at how the powers that be have ignored the residents concerns. Those poor poor people.

ARGH just seen a link shared on FB which shows that the media is now turning on the poor bloke whose fridge (allegedly) may have sparked it because he dared to pack a bag before alerting his neighbours to a small fire.

This has pissed me right off as it's detracting from the bloody powers that be who should have worked harder to prevent a fire from spreading! They are accountable not that bloke who will probably carry the guilt forever more if it turns out it started in his kitchen. FFS.

"may have sparked it because he dared to pack a bag before alerting his neighbours to a small fire."

If this is true it is horrific. Why would you not alert people first? I cannot understand why anybody would not alert people first.

I presume if he could go back in time he would. He must have had no idea of what would happen.

How would a sprinkler system distinguish between this and an actual fire?

A decent system would be activated by the fire officers from a central control panel, with different activation options, i.e. a particular floor or section, or a "whole building" activation. The last thing you'd want would be for it to be automatic due to risk of accidental alarm.

It's the same way that the ventilation system should have worked in Grenfell. There was a system installed for control of the ventilation via a control panel activated by fire officers and over-rides by fire officers on each floor. For whatever reason, it doesn't seem to have worked.

Of course they stood a chance of escape if they were alerted 20 minutes earlier. One woman woke up to pee at 1.10am and noticed the sirens so left. She got out.

He must have had no idea of what would happen.

This is why fire education needs to improve.

User give it up with the houseprices. Seriously.

The overall estate is only about 23% privately owned. That's likely to be disproportionately split with a lower percentage in the tower blocks and a higher percentage in the lower rise around them.

A large proportion of those which have been bought will have been bought under right to buy over a long period. Many will still be lived in by the original owners who bought them with a 50% plus discount

Lastly I have searched sold prices and the most expensive showing was sold for 270k.
Online house price predictors don't work well for mixed postcodes.

Stop going on about the rich people and the expensive housing. This isn't the barbican, it's a poorly built and badly maintained overcrowded social housing block.

I know I've said this on other threads but I'm going to repeat it here....

The amount of cost- cutting in vital H&S by both private LLs and HAs, in London, in blocks, is a scandal all of it's own.
DP is a gas engineer, he spends a lot of time working in London.

The amount of times he has come home in despair, as the boiler room is filled with "At Risk" notices, the wiring is faulty, but they won't spend the money to replace and make safe.

They prefer ad hoc repairs and cheap things that pretty up the place without actually addressing any real problems.

Extrapolate that attitude, to this fucking terrible event, and you can see the sorts of attitudes that leads to this.

It's always profit over people. Always

ARGH just seen a link shared on FB which shows that the media is now turning on the poor bloke whose fridge (allegedly) may have sparked it because he dared to pack a bag before alerting his neighbours to a small fire.

But we're told that each flat is "compartmentalised" with a 30-60 minute period before it would spread. This bloke would have been aware of that. It's the same reason why residents are told to stay in their flats rather than evacuate. This bloke probably thought the fire would be contained in his kitchen and that the fire service would have it extinguished long before it spread. Like everyone else, i.e. fire service, building regulators, management, etc., he didn't realise that it would spread through his kitchen window and engulf the outside in minutes.

Did they not even have those alarm things where you break the glass to set off the alarm?

How would a sprinkler system distinguish between this and an actual fire?

In most sprinkler systems each individual sprinkler is activated by the layer of smoke at the top of the room. The heat from the smoke literally breaks the glass and that allows water through. It isn't the case (in the majority of systems) that all sprinklers activate at once. They are also less sensitive that most smoke detectors - they don't go off when you burn toast for example.

He was following the shoddy protocol!

Leave IF the fire is in your flat and alert 999 to the fire, maybe he had a grab bag (I know I'm sorting one to hang on the back of my bedroom door today!) or maybe he took a change of clothes for the morning.

It was a small fire at that point, he had no reason to believe that it would escalate to that extent or so quickly.

Pleased to see a lawyer on tv saying he will help the victims for no fee .

There is a lawyer on Victoria Derbyshire now saying that there are a lot of them there looking to work on this pro bono, referring to the lack of legal aid