Sally Clarke has died....

[ZZMum]

Poor poor woman... how awful for her family after all they went thru...

Fear and ignorance breed hatred. It's at the root of any form of discrimination - racism, sexism, prejudice against people with disabilities, homosexuality, whatever. I think misogyny - hatred - is shown clearly in the attitudes of the family courts and criminal courts towards women whose babies die with no obvious cause and to victims of domestic violence or rape too.

If Psycho really is arguing that there is no such thing as hatred of women in our society, then I think she's plain wrong. And it's not only felt by men but by women.

LOL psycho, you've had me at it too

Oh edam dont get me started on rape....

I'll try not to.

Psycho really amazed me with her insistence that treatment of women can't be down to hatred. Blimey.

Yes I do actually ladidadi.

I'm acutely aware of the power my GP has over me and my children.

I was made more acutely aware of it when I was ill a few years ago and he couldn't be arsed to diagnose me correctly. (The test for gallstones has known to phsyicians since the middle-ages and I presented with classic symptoms.) But every time I go and see him or his locum and neither of them can even be bothered to look up and greet me when I walk into their surgery, I am aware of the power imbalance. I don't know about their sexism/ mysogyny, but I certainly know that they can't be arsed to treat me as a patient with basic politeness, let alone respect.

Not all, and not endemic or rife.

I don't think discrimination of disabled people stems from hatred either. (is there a word for hatred of disbaled prople?)

Still here Dh now on phone so a few minutes reprieve.

I think there is a power imbalnec in the doctor patient relationship, but I don't think it's because they are part of a misogynisic organistaion. I think men experience this imbalnce too, even men with female dovtors.

To me that's just another example of putting evry ill, every injustice done to any women down to misogyny.

There are other reasons and explanations, and saying

'is it cos I is a women??'

not always terribly helpful.

forgive my flippnacy please, I couldn't resist my waek joke.

Ah yes, I agree calig. I almost always see female GP's now.

Especially after the "Why are you still b/feeding him? He is over 1 year old" comment from a male locum who didnt know or care for up to date WHO guidelines and b/feeding advice.

The male GP was the one that referred to my swollen ankles in pg as being down to me "being a big girl", rather than the pre-eclampsia that it was.

The male consultant gynae that was so brutal in his examination of my cervix it brought on my labour early. The OTHER male consultant gynae that was so brutal in the breaking of my waters that I needed gas and air (and yet, an examination by a female mw a hour beforehand had barely caused a grimace from me).

ALL the male doctors I saw about my knee and back pains that misdiagnosed me because they felt it was "female teenage growing pains".

I suppose it may cloud my judgement, but, I think it does give an indication that male doctors seem to care much less about a womans pain and discomfort.

Then you've got a bad GP, not necessarily a misogynistic one or one who practices within a misogynistic profession.

Re the ignorance and fear thing...

Aliens land from another planet, we as humans know nothing about them. They have two heads and are purple.

I think most of us would be able to describe ourselves as ignorant and afraid but would we all necessarily hate them?

And before anyone comments, I'm not trying to liken women to two-headed purple aliens merely trying to make a point that fear and ignorance can cause hatred but do not necessarily equal hatred.

Psycho for someone who claims to be a psychologist, you don't "listen" very well. I deliberately said I wasn't sure abut their sexism/ mysogyny. Are you deliberately setting up Aunt Sally's, or do you always simplify everything you read? Because the only time I've seen you on threads, you seem to have an astonishing ability (for a psychologist) to ignore nice distinctions or subtleties in an argument.

But VVQ did you feel their collective male crapness as doctors was motivated by a hatred for you as you were a women???

I'd suggest thery were in all liklihood just as crap with their male and child patients.

They were all different male gp's ladi, at different surgeries too. (IF you were responding to my post)

And different consultants.

LOL at your hasty caveat ladidadi.

I think if a doctor has no compunction in causing such pain to a woman that a mw needs to bring her gas and air for a basic procedure, then, i'd say his care, respect and empathy for women was not high on his list of priorities. And yes, that is an understatement.

Yes I think the collective crapness is due to an inherent way of thinking that is ingrained through 'education', and being around others who feel the same.

My brother is a feminist male doctor. I don't think most people in the UK hate women or the disabled or blacks or white males or whatever. Read Adam's Curse. Very iunteresting book on the development of man. The other one I read this year by a male writer I hasten to add - the History of Misogyny although I didn't think he did enough analysis, just lots of chapters on historical examples of male damage to women throughout the ages.

On the whole though I see human beings mostly being good to each other and lots of tolerance of difference. I don't see widescale discrimination. I do see far too many women tolerating unfairness at home from their partners however.

Caligula your post was in response to ladida, which asked

'Do you genuinely feel that misogyny is endemic within the medical profession? That, for example, a consultation that you may have with your gp is influenced by ingrained misogyny ? '

To which your post started with the response

'Yes I do actually ladidadi.'

My post was a response to this.

Xenia, stop trying to turn this into a SAHM vs WOHM debate

It wont work you know

Caligula.

No VVVQ, I was replying to Caligula.

I'm with Psycho here, crap doctors are likely to be equally crap in dealing with all patients, and probably their colleaugues too!

Why is it acceptable for people to question my 'claims' to my profession and to use this to question my integrity, ability to argue and right to have a point on this issue?

Caligula you seem unecessarily aggressive and personal, in what should be an exchange of views.

I am a psychologist.
If you want verification email me for details of my BPS membership.

My views on this issue do not preclude that.

I only mentioned it earlier in to munchausens and it's view within the profession, apart from that it is irrelevant, and I'd request you stop the personal slights in that regard.

Irrespective of your profession, Caligula does have a point. You seem to be glossing over some points pretty well.

I don't care what your profession is, Psycho, only I guess I'd expect someone who is a psychologist to follow an argument properly, that's all.

I just observed that in the couple of threads I've "met" you on, you have consistently -and now I know your profession, suprisingly - really ignored subtleties of argument. You know you have. (Surely you know you have?)

If Caligula post was not suggesting that doctors inadequacies were due to misogynism, institutional or otherwise, then I don't see it's relevance.

What have I glossed over?

I answered with my view that the power imabalnec with doctor/patients exists, but would not personally put it down to misogyny.

I answered you VVQ by saying that I don't beleive that poor care of women in labour was dowm to hatred of women. Misguided notions based on poor eidence, but not hatred.

The hatred element of misogyny is central to my difficuklty with it, as i do not see all inequality as steming from hatred.

Which subltely have I ignored?

I will attempt to answer it.

I have been genuinely unaware of doing so, perhaps due to over egareness to put my own point across.

OR,alternatively, as I continue to disagree, you feel I've ignored the sublties.

Why do you make this so personal?

I will attempt to answer your points,as you strongly feel I have failed to do so.

Ponit them out, but succiently, as Dh soon off the phone.

What do you see inequality as stemming from then?

And don't imagine that hatred doesn't have a place in shoring up inequality. There's a chicken and egg aspect imo.