Sally Clarke has died....

[ZZMum]

Poor poor woman... how awful for her family after all they went thru...

A mysogynistic culture, such as the one that clearly (IMO) envelops the GMC does not mean that every member is a mysogynist. What it means is that views, disciplines, and tendencies towards mysogyny, even though one or many individuals may think wrong, go unchallenged. Because that is the way things have always been, is usually the reason why.

I dont know why you cannot see the distinction psycho.

And actually, since you say you are a psychologist, I find that a little troublesome.

I find that an unnecessarily personal and unkind comment.

I have expleined my uneasyness with the HATING element of misogyny when IMO overused to describe inequality and ignorance.

To comment on my professionalism on the basis of that view is IMO uncalled for.

IMO women are just as guilty of the 'misogyny' described here. I read it all the time, and TBH, mostly from women, regarding women explorers and the other examples raised by Sobernow. Do we really think it was only male writers who lambasted Sally Clark as an 'unfit mother'? I bet it wasn't.

sorry - i didnt mean for it to seem like i was commenting on your professionalism as much as i was replying to your revelation of your occupation and its bearing on what you believe has credence.

What I am getting at is that as someone whose job or training involves studying people, that you refuse to distinguish an environmental behaviour from an ingrained one. Intitutional mysogyny does not make one a mysogynist.

It can only be described as misogyny if it stems from HATRED.

Becky I think you're right, women can be each others greatest ctritics. Unfortunately.

Well how the fuck would you define hatred then?

Because my god, the way those women were treated was hate fuelled.

You'll be saying the witchfinder general wasn't operating in a mysogynist system next.

x posts Sobernow.

I'm afraid I just don't view all discrimation against women as stemming from hatred of women. Much from ignorance and fear of change I believe. Which to me is qualtively different from hatred which implies a feeling of extreme aversion and a motivation to delibrately hurt.

VVQ I do recogise the distinction between the individual and the organisation. As I said earlier I interpreted some post as also referring to the indivulas in the organistions.

An orgabnistion being institutionally misigynist (and lets remeber that means motivatd by HATRED for women) does not mean all members will be misogynists, but it would suggest a signifcant number must be.

No, it simply suggests that those who are, are in higher positions, or positions of power.

So you'd be happier with the term sexist than mysogynist then?

But yes of course there is hatred of women in this profession. Medicine has a long and ignoble history of fear, ignorance and resentment of women.

Childbirth up until the 70s was NOT geared towards the wellbeing of women, lets face it.

Must SHAVE
Must shower
Must have an enema
Must lay on your back
Must have your legs in stirrups
No asking OR pain relief with episiotomy
AND the stitching up afterwards

Very sexist attitude indeed.

Heavy drinking fathers, like Churchill, Kennedy
etc are not villified because there is an assumption that the mother will compensate for any parental deficiencies. Therefore, when it's the mother who appears deficient she is crucified.

I don't know enough about this case to comment on it but I do know that probably as many women as men are colleagues of my brother and he's not sexist at all. Medicine is becoming a femalep rofession which ultimately will probably mean doctors earn less unless women get better at negotiating pay so may sadly not benefit doctors. Feminisation of professions should not lead to lower pay. There are plenty of female expert witnesses and plenty of fathers accused of murdering their babies.

I dont think salaries and job equality has much relevance here Xenia, sorry.

I thought the fact we are getting more women in power in medicine kind of had an effect on what was said below.

..well Man is a generic word which encompasses woman too but funny all the same.

Childbirth has largely always been a woman thing handled by women apart from a little blip in time from about 1960 - 1970 ish may be.

I disagree that fear and ignorance equal hatred. That combination is likely to result in discrimination but not hatred.

Do you genuinely feel that misogyny is endemic within the medical profession? That, for example, a consultation that you may have with your gp is influenced by ingrained misogyny ?

Yes VVQ but I don't think they did it because they HATED women.(OK Sobernow just doing it to annoy, sorry, will stop shouting now)

In fact I'm going as Dh wants to go the computer ( I think it's just cos he hates me and as an unempowered women I'm giving in) only joking ladies

Next time I stumble across one of the misogynist threads I will endeavor to parp myself and allow you to continue uninterrupted.

Anyhow, we all agree on one thing, Sally Clarke, so bloody sad and WRONG. (last shout)

Sorry, should have read "not necessarily hatred".

Also if I ever do post on a misogynist thread again, I challenge myself to spell it the same way twice

It's not really hitting on the point at all IMVHO, but now I am being pedantic.

Sobernow, I can well believe it.

The stories I have heard from my mothers generation are shocking - including from my own mother. Childbirth and labour was NOT woman, or child for that matter, friendly. It was doctor friendly. And doctors didnt really need to be involved most of the time anyway.