Sally Clarke has died....

[ZZMum]

Poor poor woman... how awful for her family after all they went thru...

Liberal Democrat MP John Hemming is campaigning with regard to the activities of Professor Southall foxy. He's quite vocal re Meadows too.

Alan Williams certainly, but there would have been someone on the CPS team who decided not to disclose this information too. All that I've read seems to indicate that it was the prosecution who failed to provide this evidence to Sally's defence team, not that Alan Williams didn't provide it to the prosecution.

she (Sally) was a pioneer in that sense - had she and her team (incl her family) not campaigned so tirelessly and managed to get their case to appeal, the other cases would never have been reinvestigated with such vigour (because they then went back and looked over old cases where the experts, such as RM, had testified).

Yes, wanker is so much more accurate and helps to describe the system within which he flourished.

Ah, you refer to the little known "wankerism" caligula. Yes, it is rife.

A baby was found in a drain pipe around here months ago, if the mother was involved is she not culpable?
Unfortunately not all mothers always have their childrens best interests at heart. Selfish, evil women become mothers too.

I agree wholeheartedly, factors such as PND should always be taken into account and in many cases prison may not be right, but that suggestion just seems ridiculously and naively extreme to me.

As often on MN I begin by agreeing wholeheartedly with the OP and early posts, but then feel the comments become so polarised and extreme.

Yes this is a tragedy and one which all other mothers will feel particuarly for.

But to extrapolate that to no prison for killing baies ever, and the whole system and most lawyer/doctors are misogynists, is tedious and predictable.

aah thanks saggars - was also thinking of Martin Bell (who was, I think, Sally's MP at some point)

No Psycho, you are being tedious and predictable in deliberately misrepresenting the arguments. No-one has said that most lawyers and doctors are mysogynists.

We have said that the system within which they work is mysogynist.

In the same way, the Stephen Lawrence report declared that the police-force was institutionally racist. This in no way implies that every single policeman is racist.

It's a similar comparison.

Wanker used to suggestthe unpleasant, boorish sort of man I imagine he is, not a culture within a system.

Men can be chauvenistic prtas wihout being misogynists.

I presume you do know your suggesting that the sytem and all these men acrually HATE women don't you?
Not just ignorant or a bit prejudiced, but hate us.

I'm not blind to it, I just disagree that it is rife and the basis of every ill of every women, as seems to be suggested sometimes on here.

I think their is inequality, I think ther is some chauvenism/prejudice is some men, but I don't beleive women hating is rife.

not all experts are as expert as we think.

some are out and out frauds as teh above link shows, some are intoxicated by the complicated medicine and statistics they study, some are driven by their own grandeur...and underlying this particular case, is a very thick thread of misogyny.......

and i don't think it is over simplyfying....

women , if they don;t fit the madonna /whore stereotypes..but dare to have careers, dare to have kids later, dare to not enjoy every sodding minute of motherhood...are vilified.....

women are far more complex than some men would have you believe! no wonder PND, alcoholism and such like are rife, but not talked about openly, for fear of further vilification..

i truly believe that the vast majority of women who commit infanticide...Sally Clark was not one of those - are most likely suffering from extreme PND. PTSD, or puerperal psychosis....

women often don;t get the help they need post partum....are told to get on with it, you;ve only had a baby...which is the most life changing event you can ever go through, IMHO

not all experts are as expert as we think.

some are out and out frauds as teh above link shows, some are intoxicated by the complicated medicine and statistics they study, some are driven by their own grandeur...and underlying this particular case, is a very thick thread of misogyny.......

and i don't think it is over simplyfying....

women , if they don;t fit the madonna /whore stereotypes..but dare to have careers, dare to have kids later, dare to not enjoy every sodding minute of motherhood...are vilified.....

women are far more complex than some men would have you believe! no wonder PND, alcoholism and such like are rife, but not talked about openly, for fear of further vilification..

i truly believe that the vast majority of women who commit infanticide...Sally Clark was not one of those - are most likely suffering from extreme PND. PTSD, or puerperal psychosis....

women often don;t get the help they need post partum....are told to get on with it, you;ve only had a baby...which is the most life changing event you can ever go through, IMHO

Some earlier said RM AND the GMC were misogynists. I presumed they were refering to many of the individuals in the GMC as well as the organistaion being misogynist.

This case is tragic and a terrible miscarriage of justice for which RM should be held to account.

Systems needs to be carefuuly looked at and it should never happen again, but to put it down to women hating seems to me too simplistic.

misogyny is absolutely at the heart of this matter.

Psycho, it was Roy Meadow's ex-wife, the mother of his children, who said he was a misogynist. Surely she is in a better position to argue that than you?

"According to his former wife, Sir Roy is a misogynist - a claim which will be seized upon by those who have accused him of conducting a witch hunt against innocent mothers. "I don?t think he likes women," said Ms Paterson, a journalist and writer. "He?s not gay. I don?t think he?s gay. But, although I can?t go into details, I?m sure he has a serious problem with women," she said."

here

Just as misgyny was at the heart of the original witch hunts.

Upwind see my earlier post where i said RM might well be. I do not defend that man in any way.

It's the women hating is rife argument that i take exception to.

But there was another 'expert' who accused her husband of killing the children. He was disciplined too as I recall. What a bloody mess

That expert had never met either of the Clarks - he had read a newspaper article!!!!!

Psycho - RM was famous and considered a leading member of his profession because, not in spite of, his perverse notions about mothers. He was knighted for his services and had his articles published in respected journals despite their complete lack of scientific basis.

To me, that suggests that misogyny is rife in his field.

aol there was input from CONI (care of next infant)

nurseryjo I was wondering the same thing about the genetic link, seems to be a very tragic coincidence doesnt it

The theory of Munchausen by proxy is based on obsevation and experience and was given credence at the time as many professionals recognised it from thier own practice. Men and women.

Moat psychological thoeries, are just that, theories, by professionals based on their observations. This was one that many doctors recogised, and people within my profesion recogise (I'm a psychologist).

It has been discreited, partly due to this case, and because it is so contentious and dangerou, as unprovable.

Many professionals of both sexes who work with parents, recognise the description however. There are parents who harm their children, or pretend theor children are ill, to fulfill some psychological need of their own.

That is not a misogynistic stance. It's one many professionals would recognisre if no longer be preapred to stand by.

RM however was very likely from all accounts a misogynit and a wanker.

Sobernow I agree with all the exapmles you give and recognise the inequalities.

I however don't put all the inequalities down to women HATING. I put it down (in most cases, obviously there are some misogynists) to ignorance, history, unequal expectaions, unfairness, but not because most men and the system as a whole HATES women.

Women are discriminated against, but I don't belive it is due to widespread women HATING.

I think people slip too easily into using dicrimination interchangably with misogyny, ignoring the HATE element too it.

All discrimination is not based on hatred.

Oh for goodness sake, how do you think Mad Dog Meadow managed to flourish and rise to the top of his profession with his outlandish mysogynist views?

As Upwind says, no-one challenged his barking ideas about the evil nature of mothers - they accepted, nay, embraced them, and then some fucker gave him a knighthood for them.

In a system not riddled with mysogyny, not deeply hostile to and suspicious of women, would these ideas have been so warmly and uncritically received? Of course not. If there had even been a smidgeon of dissent, of concern from his peers at some stage of his career, we might not be throwing this term mysogyny around. But in view of his career and the disgraceful stomach-turning performance of his professional body already alluded to by Edam, we're well entitled to use the term as often as we like imo.