Wheelchair Vs Buggy

[Twinning546]

I've just been reading about Doug Paulley being successful in the supreme court regarding pushchairs having to move for a wheelchair user. How does this work practically if there isn't any space to move to and you've already paid for your journey? Considering I travel with a large double pram with twins under 1 I can't just fold it up and sit with a child on my lap so I'd have to get off the bus.

Someone is booked in to assist the wheelchair though aren't they? You tell them in advance you're coming and they meet you.

If you are lucky. Plenty of wheelchair passengers have been unable to get on/off because - despite booking - the train company just never put anyone one. Even happened to Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson. If that can happen to a Dame, just imagine how everyday folk are treated

Can you not see that a negative stereotype has been created? In the news "...after a mother refused to move." Not "another passenger"-it's constantly emphasised

I get the bus as my nearest town is 6 miles away and i dont drive. My main pushchair is big and to fold i have to take the parent facing seat off (main seat folds fine but she is only just big enough for it) thankfully never had to fold it but I would if the space was needed for a wheelchair user, I always take the carrier out with me just incase i need to collapse the pushchair (can't use it instead of pushchair due to bad back)
I have just ordered one of those easy fold, plane carry on pushchairs to make things easier should i need to move (smaller, nothing needs taking off so wont need help and will be quick)

I have been left stranded on a train after booking the help service im not a wheelchair user but disabled, was going on a 3 train journey on my second connection the assistant didn't come another passenger helped me off which was kind. I was annoyed they didn't come i had to go to the booking office to chase them up for my next connection,

Qwertie

Please do look at the link I posted on page one.

The following has been posted by mothers:-

I'm not moving. My baby is asleep
Im not moving. What am i supposed to do with my shopping?
I'm not moving. My pushchair doesn't collapse
I'm not moving. I don't trust a stranger to hold my baby.
I'm not moving. Another wheelchair user wouldn't have to move so therefore I'm not either

And someone has actually said the words

"I pay for your free bus pass. When you start paying, your opinion is valid. Until then you can shut up"

And if it is the last bus of the night? Someone is getting discriminated against regardless.

So glad of this ruling.
My bus route goes past a care home for young people with physical disabilities so I've regularly had to get off the bus to accommodate wheelchairs.
Yes walking up the massive steep hill to my house isn't fun and takes a good 30 minutes but it's pales in comparison to the inconvenience that wheel chair users experience.
Im always confused by people who buy big tank like pushchairs when they know they might need to use public transport. I bought a pushchair that was easy to fold, I'm just too lazy to fanny about folding it so would rather walk.

Can you not see that a negative stereotype has been created? In the news "...after a mother refused to move." Not "another passenger"-it's constantly emphasised

You're talking as if the negative stereotype has been "created" out if nothing to make mothers look like bad guys. Unfortunately I've read enough of these threads and have enough wheelchair user friends to know that there are people who genuinely behave like this. I like to think the best of people but sadly it doesn't surprise me any more when people don't respect the rights of disabled people to occupy the space that has been specifically allocated to them.

Just to clarify something:

• In the bad old days, there was no way for wheelchairs to use buses at all
• So they designed buses with a wheelchair space and acessible doors
• Then buggy users decided they should have equal ownership of that space. But it is not a 'wheelchair/buggy space, with wheelchairs taking precedence'. It is just a 'wheelchair space'.

So if I were to theoretically travel on a bus, and I have a double bass or enormous backpack in the empty wheelchair space, I am not compelled to move when a buggy user comes along? Of course I would always move out of decency, not being an arsehole etc, but buggies don't actually have second dibs, compared with an equally laden other passenger?

Can you really not see that you might feel conspicuous and unwelcome on a bus today with a pushchair? Of course, this is true for wheelchair users on a daily basis, but surely provision must be made for anyone not just switching the ejection button to another vulnerable passenger.

- Then buggy users decided they should have equal ownership of that space. But it is not a 'wheelchair/buggy space, with wheelchairs taking precedence'. It is just a 'wheelchair space'.

To be fair, round here the buses have signs that say wheelchair/buggy space and shows how to position wheelchairs and buggies safely.

It does however also say that buggies must be folded to make room for wheelchairs as wheelchairs take precedence.

Why should either have to compromise? A wheel chair user should have access to an area for them only. A vulnerable mother trying to fold a pram whilst holding a new born and no help from bus driver who drove off mid folding pram, or passengers. That was me. Luckily I can now drive, but busses should have built in car seat areas to strap a baby safely whilst a parent folds down the pram. At the moment the facilities lack for both.

The initial incident that promoted this case took place 5 years ago. So that child will probably have been traveling without a pram for at least the last 3. The man who started the case will still be facing the same battles whenever he travels now, and will for the rest of his life. Hopefully today's ruling can mean him and every other wheelchair can get on a bus without having to worry each time about who will be refusing to allow them into the space

What's wrong with 'parents' though? Or does having a penis exempt you from buggy/wheelchair space conflicts?

In fairness the use of the word mother is purely reporting thw facts. A mother refused to move her buggy to allow a wheelchair user on the bus. I don't see what is wrong with that statement.

I agree entirely with the ruling. Anyone who refuses to move for a wheelchair is a dick.

Some of our new buses have specific spaces so pram space is clearly marked and disabled seats/wheelchair spaces are clearly marked which a lot better than having wheelchair/pram spaces as an all in one

This was a mother refusing to move though not a father im sure if it was a father they would say. If somebody causes a fuss elsewhere and it is reported they dont say person refused to.. they say man or woman.

Of course they're a dick. But the Standard headline today is 'buggy mums' not 'buggy mum's'

Fwiw I know more men than women who commute into central London with buggies.

Just to be clear on what the judgement actually says (which is complicated by the fact that a number of the judges partially dissented)...

The policy of FirstGroup was that drivers should request that the non-wheelchair user vacate the space and do nothing further if met with a refusal. The Supreme Court has decided that this was inadequate. They believe FirstGroup should encourage drivers to go as far as they think appropriate in the circumstances to get the passenger to reconsider their refusal. What was appropriate might depend on why the non-wheelchair user refused to move, including the non-wheelchair user's needs, whether the bus is full, whether it is on time, the length of the wait until the next bus and (possibly) the character of the driver. If the driver thinks the non-wheelchair user's refusal to move is reasonable they would not, according to the judgement, be required to take any further action. If it is unreasonable the driver might be expected to rephrase the request as a requirement and possibly, in the face of continued refusal, refuse to move the bus for a few minutes to try and pressurise the individual into moving.

Some of the judges also suggested that the signs for wheelchair spaces needed to change but I haven't read the judgement carefully enough to see if that was agreed by a majority.

Note that the Court has not required bus drivers to behave differently. They have simply required FirstGroup to change from a policy of request and do nothing further in the face of a refusal, to a policy of requesting and, if faced with an unreasonable refusal, consider whether to take further action to try and persuade the non-wheelchair user to move.

Whilst this is being hailed as a victory for disabled rights, I tend to agree with those judges in the Supreme Court who have said that, in practice, there is very little difference between FirstGroup's existing policy and the new policy the Supreme Court requires.

Following this judgement FirstGroup needs to reword its policy and provide some training for its drivers. However, if they do so and Mr Paulley subsequently finds himself in the same situation, there is no guarantee that the outcome will be any different. FirstGroup will have discharged their responsibilities by setting an appropriate policy and providing training to drivers, so a similar legal action by Mr Paulley would fail.

Rurial buses tend to never be crowded enough that folded buggy cant be put somewhere on the bus.