Priests to control school admissions: Discuss

[TheKingIsInTheAltogether]

So the Catholic Education Service has devised a new admissions process for its schools putting the decision on whether a family is considered "practicing" or not in the hands of its priests. The priests will grant a Certificate of Catholic Practice to families who they deem to be following Canon Law, but are able to apply some professional discretion.

Families will need one of these certificates if they want a place at an oversubscribed catholic school.

However the Schools Adjudicator has thrown a spanner in the works by declaring the new process in breach of the Admissions Code, and that decision is going to be challenged in the courts ...
www.theguardian.com/education/2016/nov/20/catholic-church-court-priests-faith-school-places

It seems to me that the Catholic Church is actively promoting its schools as academically desirable and using that as a carrot to coerce all Catholics into following Canon Law to the letter. In areas where schools are very oversubscribed, families will inevitably need to compete for these certificates and the bar for obtaining them can be raised at the priest's discretion. Families won't dare miss Mass in case their faith is considered questionable.

I can't believe anyone would think that an acceptable admissions system!

5to2. There are some schools who require evidence of parents baptism as well (London Oratory for one), precisely because of this clever little ruse... There are always people who think they're the first to think of a way around the rules, but the schools have seen it all before.

Some Catholic schools do require baptism within a certain period, but not all. The primary school DD attends doesn't have a set period (thank goodness) but the nearest Catholc girls' secondary awards points according to a number of criteria one of which is date of baptism.

And as for the race issue, where we are in a fairly wealthy suburb on the outskirts of London, DD's school is significantly more ethnically mixed than the local community school because that admits on the basis of distance. Our local Catholic church is very ethnically mixed and that is reflected in the school admissions.

There are some schools who require evidence of parents baptism as well (London Oratory for one)

Not any more. I think you'll find they now use the CCP.

They don't teach creationism in Catholic schools as far as I am aware. At the one I attended many years ago, we learned about evolution. We also learned about the book of Genesis in RE lessons but somehow we reconciled the two. I am not sure how really and neither am I sure what the Church's official position on it is. I assume it is a sort of intelligent design type theory - everything science proves is correct, but God started the ball rolling.

I think you'll find they now use the CCP

Forget that, no they don't. Just checked.

they do exist and are very popular

Good schools tend to be popular. It isn't directly because of the faith element. For some schools (like the Oratory for example) the "faith-based" admissions procedures allow them to select well-off, upper middle class families covertly in the same way that private school select overtly on who can afford them and grammar schools select overtly on who can pass the tests with a high enough score.

The issues are much wider than whether a priest will sign something.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10969162/Top-faith-school-attacked-over-social--of-pupils.html

Article on Oratory selection from a couple of years ago.

The Oratory policy puts the Canon Laws on Catholic practice in the criteria, as follows ....

.
NOTES ON CATHOLIC PRACTICE

Extract from the current Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II on 25th January 1983.

For members of Eastern Catholic churches the relevant CCEO canons will apply.

MASS ATTENDANCE

Canon 1246. Sunday, on which by apostolic tradition the paschal mystery is celebrated, is to be

observed in the universal Church as the primary day of obligation. The following feast days are also

to be observed as holydays of obligation: the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, The Assumption of

the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Apostles Peter and Paul and All Saints

Canon 1247. On Sundays and other holydays of obligation, the faithful are obliged to participate in

the Mass. They are also to abstain from such work or business that would inhibit the worship to be

given to God, the joy proper to the Lord’s Day, or the due relaxation of mind and body.

Canon 1248. The obligation of participating in the Mass is satisfied by one who assists at Mass

wherever it is celebrated in the Catholic rite, either on the holyday of obligation itself or on the

evening of the previous day. If it is impossible to participate in a Eucharistic celebration, either

because no sacred minister is available or for some other grave reason, the faithful are strongly

recommended to take part in the liturgy of the Word, if there be such in the parish church or some

other sacred place, which is celebrated in accordance with the provisions laid down by the diocesan

Bishop; or to spend an appropriate time in prayer, whether personally or as a family or as occasion

presents, in groups of families.

BAPTISM

Canon 867. §1 Parents are obliged to see that their infants are baptised within the first few weeks. As

soon as possible after the birth, indeed even before it, they are to approach the parish priest to ask for

the sacrament for their candidate, and to be themselves duly prepared for it. §2 If the infant is in

danger of death, it is to be baptised without any delay.

Good schools tend to be popular. It isn't directly because of the faith element

Yeah, but that's not the point of this thread. You're right that there are wider issues, but if everyone focuses on them whenever the phrase "faith school" is mentioned, the more detailed issues get overlooked.

That's why the schools get away with so many breaches of the admissions code - people are too busy debating the "bigger issues" to notice.

No, you're right, evolution is taught in Catholic schools.

The view of the Vatican is (I believe) that evolution is not problematic simply cos science will never disprove God. They do disagree with the ethical use of some scientific discoveries (cloning etc) but still defend science itself as a positive thing.

As an aside, I met a Nigerian nurse not too long ago who took me aside and asked me in confidence if I believed in evolution. I was taken aback, and asked why? She said that her (Christian) church did not, but she was starting to ask questions about the whole 7 day thing.

They went to a non faith based school but learnt this in regular Sunday school held by their community. Are these Sunday schools subject to any inspection I wonder?

I think you'll find they now use both, op. Been there...

This is already effectively the case for the (many) Catholic schools around me - whether it's the letter of the rules or not, if you don't go to mass (at minimum), you don't get in. The result is separation of kids by religion all through school, which does not help social cohesion when they all leave school.

They are state schools, and should let anyone in regardless of creed. That any state school is allowed to discriminate on religion is a fucking disgrace.

To most people though, Kings, what these schools are getting away with in terms of the wider issues is the debate. The way to resolve it is to legislate on admissions criteria for all state (faith) schools, not deal with the finer points of admissions to certain RC schools.

not deal with the finer points of admissions to certain RC schools

You're missing the significant fact that this was intended to be a national system. It's been nipped in the bud for now, but if the Diocese wins its judicial review it'll be rolled out everywhere.

The people who devised the scheme are the same people (the CES) lobbying for the 50:50 law to be reversed. In doing so they are making the case for a huge increase the number of faith schools.

It's all part of the same big plan - to use our state school system to grow and advance the aims of the Catholic Church.

And its no coincidence that the head of the CES (Catholic Education Service) is a barrister specialising in Education Law!

Ahhh, so it's a big old Catholic Conspiracy! Tchuh, how dare they have good schools!

Thing is we separate kids by academic ability and by wealth. Separating them by set of beliefs is no different.

Personally I think all forms of separation should be stopped.

Also worth pointing out that a Judicial Review costs tens of thousands of pounds, so the CES/Diocese would not be going down that route if a) the new admissions system wasn't strategically important to them and b) they didn't think they had a chance of winning the case.

we separate kids by academic ability and by wealth

Not by wealth in state funded education. Unless you're talking about catchment house prices.

Ahhh, so it's a big old Catholic Conspiracy! Tchuh, how dare they have good schools!

Given that the schools were set up in the first place to establish and spread the Church's teaching, it hardly needs a conspiracy theory to come to the conclusion that that's probably still the aim? Which is absolutely fine, as long as public finances aren't being appropriated to further that aim.

One of our local schools insists on baptismal certificate within 3 months of birth
I have heard of this and many of the Catholic schools put LAC/ex-LAC who are baptised (under their definition of baptised) before baptised non-LAC who are before non-baptised LAC.

Even for ex-LAC who have been adopted by a strongly Catholic family who want the Catholic ethos, this is discriminatory as where a child was born into a chaotic birth family they are very unlikely to have been baptised at all let alone that soon. Sometimes it's unclear whether a child was baptised, sometimes the birth family ask for baptism but the SW is not sure if they can agree while a child is in FC etc. etc.

And that's leaving aside Catholic children from mildly chaotic homes that don't need to be in care, but do need a good education, and the discrimination against non-Catholic LAC who are supposed to be given priority.

Exactly GlassCircles.

RC schools are fundamentally different to CE schools in that regard. CE schools are (officially at least) meant to be a charitable resource for their local communities whereas RC schools are evangelical.

It sounds like they are preaching to the (recently) converted more than evangelical. Sneakily evangelical, perhaps. If they really wanted to spread the word they'd take anyone of any faith or none.

Plus it's not very "What would Jesus do?" is it? Yes we'll have you nice little baptised child. Not you, you heathen. I sometimes wonder whether some self-proclaimed Christian religious types have ever attempted to learn from Jesus' example. Perhaps they prefer the OT vengeful God.

For all the posters saying 'that's not how my school does it' the point is not yet (at least not all) but what the CES are hoping is that it will apply to all.

Selection by faith is different to selection by wealth, postcode or academic ability. It aims to separate and educate children according to defined moral and religious codes. It is aimed at instilling these in the children potentially to the detriment of their education and certainly to show up divisions in society. In my view, it runs contrary to the principles of education - which should be the opening of minds, exploring new ideas, encouraging independent thought etc.

What the CES are trying to do is give their priests more power and authority over others. How can that be seen as religious?

Exactly 5to2. Only those who practice religion in the 'way we think is right' may enter. And they won't tell you how they decide as that is up to one individual to choose.