Priests to control school admissions: Discuss

[TheKingIsInTheAltogether]

So the Catholic Education Service has devised a new admissions process for its schools putting the decision on whether a family is considered "practicing" or not in the hands of its priests. The priests will grant a Certificate of Catholic Practice to families who they deem to be following Canon Law, but are able to apply some professional discretion.

Families will need one of these certificates if they want a place at an oversubscribed catholic school.

However the Schools Adjudicator has thrown a spanner in the works by declaring the new process in breach of the Admissions Code, and that decision is going to be challenged in the courts ...
www.theguardian.com/education/2016/nov/20/catholic-church-court-priests-faith-school-places

It seems to me that the Catholic Church is actively promoting its schools as academically desirable and using that as a carrot to coerce all Catholics into following Canon Law to the letter. In areas where schools are very oversubscribed, families will inevitably need to compete for these certificates and the bar for obtaining them can be raised at the priest's discretion. Families won't dare miss Mass in case their faith is considered questionable.

I can't believe anyone would think that an acceptable admissions system!

Suppermummy02 - "the white sahm....married to the white wealthy man..."

How on earth have you managed to turn this into a discussion about race?

There has to be a point system otherwise it would be impossible to decide on admissions. All schools have admissions criteria. Ucas has a point scoring system.

Hackmum- you'd have to ensure you educated your left wing children about other political ideologies as well

Suppermummy, giving the church the benefit of the doubt, that's probably exactly the sort of scenario they want their priests to be able to use their professional judgement for. In other words the new certificate could benefit the asylum seekers. The problem is it also might not - nobody would know in advance. The asylum seekers would be entirely dependent on the priest's patronage on a case by case basis.

That might be good if the priest's always make wise decisions, but it is obviously open to poor judgement and abuse too. That's why it's not considered legal by the adjudicator.

There is another way the asylum seekers, and others who can't meet strict criteria could be prioritised. They could use an Exceptional Medical or Social Need clause. The priest could sign that instead, in which case the Diocese's argument about a priest's signature being analagous to a doctor's signature might have some validity.

Prh47bridge if you're still following this discussion, would you agree?

Glasscircles, if you are an atheist why would you want your children to go to a catholic school where religion is a very large part of their education.

If I had a choice between an 'outstanding' non faith school or a not as good catholic school. I would choose the catholic school as I would want my () children to be brought up in a Catholic environment.

Toddler then I hope you would be just as concerned as any other fair minded person that the Catholic school in question had a legal and transparent admissions policy.

pepperpot I am not trying to make this about race, I was pointing out the Catholic admissions system inherently favours a narrow category of child. As another person commented, 'it would be ridiculous to open a political school' ... where children were only allowed entry if they attended political rallies every weekend and helped canvas at every election.

If we have to have religious schools, children should be allowed to self identify with what ever religion they feel suits them best. It should not be imposed on them by some random priest to decide who is closest to god.

Most Catholics in the UK are white. But even if you were a Catholic you wouldn't be allowed into the school if you were sinful enough to have a single parent, divorced parents, unmarried parents, homosexual parents, parents who have to work on a Sunday, parents who didn't get you baptised fast enough, parents who couldn't afford to volunteer to help at the church, parents who couldn't travel to a church, parents who didn't cosy up to or were critical of the priest ...

And what happens when the parents meet all the criteria but the child isn't actually Catholic or is gay or transgender.

One of my friends is a Catholic priest...he has got so fed up with all this that he signs the form for any parent who asks. The way he sees it is that this means the only people in church are those who actually want to be there. He says he would rather do that than have a packed church full of people who don't really want to be there.

You are talking absolute nonsense Suppermummy - where I live in N London, the intake for the Catholic schools has a massive ethnic mix. So that blows apart your 'white supremacist' theory. Secondly, I personally know lots of single parents etc whose children attend these schools. Unless you personally know of transgender parents or gay parents whose dc have been turned away because their parents are trans/gay etc then I suggest you keep your prejudices to yourself. Your posts come across as massively biased as well as total nonsense.
And when you mentioned the racial adjective 'white' twice in a single sentence I'm afraid you DID make it a race issue.

One of my friends is a Catholic priest...he has got so fed up with all this that he signs the form for any parent who asks.

Which again illustrates the point made by the adjudicator that any system reliant on patronage is open to abuse.

If the priest's are already purjuring themselves now when the criteria are out in the open they'll be even less inclined to stick to consistent criteria when the rules are known only to them and their bishops.

Perhaps someone could tell the very large community of Syro-Malabar and Phillapino Catholics that my diocese is blessed with that most Catholics are white.

pepperpot, I looked up the stats and around 93% of the Catholic population in the UK is white. So if a church is selecting based on who is following canon law most, how will their be an ethnic mix in catholic schools? Excepting London which is essentially a different country.

I imagine priests could ignore all this nonsense (as Alfieisnoisy says) but if they are following the policy in oversubscribed catholic schools, how will a child of practising homosexual parents be considered to be following canon law more than heterosexual parents?

Exactly how would the parents meet all the criteria for a Catholic school if their child isn't Catholic, supermummy?
And as to the child being gay or transgender - there most assuredly is no such box to tick and no requirement to disclose anything of the sort.
You have truly reached the bottom of the barrel with that post, time to stop digging,

Floggingmolly: Because the parents could have fulfilled all the criteria, making sure their DC was baptised, attended church, volunteered, said prayers every night etc etc, but what the child believes personally is irrelevant.

I am trying to point out the potential discrimination in the policy:
"The priests will grant a Certificate of Catholic Practice to families who they deem to be following Canon Law"
And what if a child is openly gay or transgender (as is all over the news these days), does canon law says this is acceptable? I was under the impression it wasn't and the priest could reject their application to a school on this ground.

It is an acceptable question to ask of a church schools admissions policy.

Even in the 1970s we knew there were homosexuals in our Catholic Church but no one ever felt the need to make a big deal out of it because no one cared! In those days you minded your own business about other people's sex lives. Two of the female teachers in our Catholic primary were a lesbian couple living together, no one thought anything of it, they were popular and respected as good teachers.

There won't be any questions about sexual preferences in the school admissions because frankly no one will care.

My DSis is putting her eldest DC down for their excellent local Catholic school. She is likely to get a place because they prefer children from families who go to church. Any church, not just Catholic. She's a Christian but with all she's got on they don't make it every week. Her vicar was happy to sign.

One of the reasons my DSIs is keen is that the school is far more ethnically mixed than any of the others. She grew up in London and feels strongly about the value of multi ethnic education. The school is more diverse because it seems there are a higher percentage of black families who are active Christians.

The business about no communion for divorced people really does happen. I know someone who drives to the next town for communion.

missyB1 - If only it were so... Why then did the Catholic church close all its adoption agencies, if it was so accepting of gay parents?

She's a Christian but with all she's got on they don't make it every week. Her vicar was happy to sign.

Again more evidence that what the RC church is introducing in the form of the CCP is just a formalization of what is happening anyway in some areas. But it's illegal (unless they win the judicial review in which case the CodE will probably follow up with their own version).

TheKingIsInTheAltogether: But why does there even need to be a CCP, why cant children self declare like in Prawnofthepatriarchy's example?

Glasscircles, if you are an atheist why would you want your children to go to a catholic school where religion is a very large part of their education.

Toddler - So as not to derail the thread may I point you to another which deals fairly thoroughly with this question:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a2560385-To-be-sick-of-people-slating-Faith-schools#59090776

But why does there even need to be a CCP, why cant children self declare like in Prawnofthepatriarchy's example?

Personally that's exactly what I think they should do.

If the RC church lose the judicial review maybe they'll have a long hard look at themselves and conclude the same. Doubt it though.

On the other hand the Cod E have already gone a step further and declared their schools "church schools for the community, not faith schools for the faithful" (don't have the link to hand but you can Google it. It was quite recent). They want all their schools to have open admissions. Problem is the VA Schools and academies are there own admissions authorities so can do what they like. If more local vicars took a stand against the current system (or were named and shamed for abusing it) things might change more quickly . But at the moment many are enjoying the increase in their congregations and are happy to put up with the registers and the form signing.

To qualify for priority where my DSis lives families must be Christian, though of any denomination, and attend church fairly regularly. She estimates that her lot get to church at least once a month, she was married in that church, and both DC were baptized there. Her DH doesn't attend, but the DC love Sunday school and she is fond of their vicar. I've met him myself and can see why she likes him. Proper old-fashioned CofE job. Gentle, courteous, scholarly.

I don't approve of faith schools. In Northern Ireland and in parts of Scotland, I'm told, they promote sectarianism, and although nearly all the faith schools I've known have been very good, there are some that are downright damaging. If you allow C of E faith schools you must also, to be evenhanded, allow schools which promote other, less benign, faiths. We've had issues near here of Islamic schools which disadvantage girls, for instance. The whole Operation Trojan Horse was very concerning. There's also the issue of some academies being run by Creationists, ffs, which is not allowed in ordinary state schools.

There's also the issue of some academies being run by Creationists, ffs, which is not allowed in ordinary state schools

It's not allowed in Academies either. (And, by the way, Academies are state schools too).

That is - teaching creationism isn't allowed. Schools being run by creationists is more of a grey area - they would have to be caught teaching it before they had their funding stopped.

Anyway, none of that is relevant to the thread. faith schools exist, so let's concentrate on making sure their admissions are fair and legal.

To be fair if your going to allow Catholic schools, I dont see why a Creationist school should be disallowed, or even a Scientology one. The only difference is historical.