Priests to control school admissions: Discuss

[TheKingIsInTheAltogether]

So the Catholic Education Service has devised a new admissions process for its schools putting the decision on whether a family is considered "practicing" or not in the hands of its priests. The priests will grant a Certificate of Catholic Practice to families who they deem to be following Canon Law, but are able to apply some professional discretion.

Families will need one of these certificates if they want a place at an oversubscribed catholic school.

However the Schools Adjudicator has thrown a spanner in the works by declaring the new process in breach of the Admissions Code, and that decision is going to be challenged in the courts ...
www.theguardian.com/education/2016/nov/20/catholic-church-court-priests-faith-school-places

It seems to me that the Catholic Church is actively promoting its schools as academically desirable and using that as a carrot to coerce all Catholics into following Canon Law to the letter. In areas where schools are very oversubscribed, families will inevitably need to compete for these certificates and the bar for obtaining them can be raised at the priest's discretion. Families won't dare miss Mass in case their faith is considered questionable.

I can't believe anyone would think that an acceptable admissions system!

As many Catholics will apply to several Catholic schools, presumably they just get one CCP and photocopy it.

If that's the case it must be very easy to forge one.

Forge one? But no Catholic would do that, would they?

blimey non catholics have to go to catholic schools because there are not enough school places in our authority. So, at our last house, despite being only 150m from a catholic school, we would not have gained a place. Our next nearest school was CE (400m). Then a school which was ordinary LA maintained community school (600m). Except we wouldn't have got a place there, as we lived too far away. Ditto the next school, and the next. The school that had places was 3.5 km away .
And why do you think it had places?

It would be fun if people applied to the catholic education service rather than a particular school. The catholic education service could do its best to accommodate the family with a place at a catholic school. The fakers would think twice if they knew they risked being allotted the required improvement catholic school as their second choice instead of the community school round the corner.

I think that if a family is going to use faith criteria then their second choice should be another faith school. They should not be able to get equal priority with a non faith family for the community school if their first choice is unsuccessful.

When I went to school in the 80s it was like this. When I stopped going good to mass at 16 I was called into the head mistresses office to explain whyour and discuss if I could sit my gcses

In italy the schools are for the most part state schools and religion plays little part in the as there is a distinct separation between state and church. But, seeing as you need to send your child to catechism before they can make their communion or confirmation, most churches are now demanding that kids and parents frequent the church has and I personally know of about 5 kids who were denied their communion last year because their parents refused to take them to church.

Personally I agree with them.

Denying a child first communion because they do not attend church is completely reasonable. How can they be expected to profess to a faith they know little about. It's not on a par with making parents attend mass for a school place.

I have recently refused to allow my daughter to go to first communion classes in the c of e because I think she is far too young. I think that blackmailing families to prepare their children for first communion with school places is wrong.

Well in my DCs last god awful school it wasn't even how popular you were with the priest. It was how popular you were with the teachers.

Wow. Just wow. I went to Catholic primary. My favourite memory is a project on dinosaurs. It was the first place I was exposed to people from different races (and religions - a Sikh family attended). It was (and remains) more diverse than the local village school.
I thought Mumsnet couldn't hate my educational background more. I was wrong. Somehow despite going to a Catholic primary and a single sex grammar school, I am a well balanced individual who's main prejudice is against stupid people.

How old is your DD, reallytired?
I, personally, don't think anyone should be allowed to do confirmation (or first communion) until 12 or 13.
I see 7yo s preparing for first communion, and I am very dubious. As if the average 7yo has any idea what they're signing up to
I speak as an apostate, and parent of a 7yo!

DoctorDonna - I think most kids enjoy projects about dinosaurs, and everyone accepts that RC schools that are undersubscribed by Catholics are obliged by law to allow in children of other faiths. That's not really the point.

The point is the lack of transparency in admissions to state funded schools, and the fact that the Catholic Church wants to use their state-funded schools to bribe people into going to church more often than they otherwise would.

It's also about how their admissions systems are designed to keep out the "riff raff".

My daughter is seven years old and I don't think that any seven year old is ready for communion. The priest commented to me was that children varied in their intelligence when I told her that dd was not doing communion classes. I told him that I thought such a comment was ridiculous and she was rude. I agree that no seven year old can have a clue what they are signing up for.

I think that confirmation should happen over 18. There should be no coercion to attend church or do any of the sacraments.

Wow, how rude!
CE is slightly less hellfire and damnation that RC, but even so, a 7yo does not have the capacity to comprehend what their fate is if they later reject what they signed up to. Under RC faith, eternal damnation of their soul, and cast down to hell.
If you believe that sort of thing.
A 7yo cannot have faith and believe in God, any more than they 'believe' in Father Christmas.

But those criteria are clear soup - you can quite easily ascertain which category you fit in

Yes, but the point is that they already admit children according to how catholic they are.

We fit into the "burn the application form" category on account of being atheist!

I meant to comment yesterday, soupy, that I hoped the schools were secondary (as they state about first communion)... but now I'm wondering!

Yes, they're secondary :)

I thought it was always the decision of the priest
When we moved to our town, there weren't any places in the community school for one of our dc, the other was fine.
Eventually the LA asked us to apply for the oversubscribed Catholic school which was next door.
We aren't Catholic but the priest decided it would be in ds interest to go to the school and signed the form.
There were people who had above the points needed who had missed out on a place because it was so popular and oversubscribed. It was/is always the priest or vicar at Church schools in our area. You have to complete 2 forms one for LA one for vicar/priest.

The only catholic primary I can think of off the top of my head doesn't prioritise in the same way. It insists on weekly mass attendance and will not give sibling priority to a family where attendance has dropped but that's as far as it goes.

The final tie break criteria is "toss of a coin" which horrified me!

We aren't Catholic but the priest decided it would be in ds interest to go to the school and signed the form

Then that just underlines how non-transparent the existing system is, never mind the new system.

As it says in the judgement "any system which introduces the potential for patronage of any kind is open to abuse".

"Why shouldn't practicing Catholics get priority at Catholic schools? "

I actually agree with you.

I just think that Catholic schools (and indeed other types of religious schools) have no right to public money.

If the Catholic church wants Catholic schools, then they need to set up private, fee-paying ones.

They then have my full permission to engage in whatever damn-fool admissions criteria they wish to use.

State schools, however, should not have their admissions policies dictated on the grounds of religion.

I agree. State funded schools should not be able to discriminate on the basis of religion.

State funded religious schools goes back to the very origin of state education in this country. It may be on here that many of you insist that you hate them, however, they are over subscribed and very popular in general.
I only mentioned the dinosaur project to try and counter the nonsense that all you learn in Catholic school is Catholicism. Tosh. As a state school (unless an academy) it must follow the national curriculum. Our local one does. My son may or may not be going there when old enough as I'll choose the best fit. When it comes to secondary if things are as they are currently (unlikely) the Catholic school will be on the list as they don't choose their options until year 9.
RC is a lot less HellFire than many many Protestant churches.

State funded religious schools goes back to the very origin of state education in this country.

Yes, many of the country's existing state schools were originally set up and paid for by religious organisations. The situation now is much more muddied since these schools are nearly wholly state funded. As such, it is an anomaly that the schools are allowed to practise religious discrimination in order to access to a state-funded service.

It may be on here that many of you insist that you hate them, however, they are over subscribed and very popular in general.

Where there is a shortage of school places (as there are in many parts of the country) then there will be competition for places in ANY local school. Add selection into the mix and you skew admission in favour of parents who are prepared to jump through the religious hoops. This narrows down the field in favour of the type of parents who have the money, time and 'right' religious background. So the school becomes more desirable because it is able to select - ostensibly on religion but in practice on social factors as well.

Whether some people do/don't like faith schools or (more usually) do/don't think they should be funded by the state isn't relevant and, in any case, is done to death on other threads.

Faith schools have to follow the law on admissions, whether people have happy memories or not, and whether people think they should exist or not.

I wonder how migrants/asylum seekers will be able to prove their children were baptised at birth and have attended church every week for the past ten years. Will the Priest take their word for and send them to the front of the admissions queue. , a good way to keep out the undesirables?

I'm a member of the Labour Party. Perhaps I could set up a socialist free school with government money, and make sure I give priority to children whose parents are Labour Party members. After all, the school's socialist ethos is extremely important and I wouldn't want it diluted with children whose parents vote Tory or Liberal Democrat.

No, I can't see any problem with that at all.