Unicef: out of all the industrialised nations Britain comes bottom.

[Callisto]

Anyone suprised? The full report is here: unicef report

I used to live in Hamburg, Germany, and I notice a huge difference between how they treat their children and how a lot of people treat their children here. All the families I knew and know now over there sit together for meals whenever possible, they do not eat in front of the TV, they talk to their children. Children are not just something you have and have to tolerate, children are precious and treated as such. I live in a village which is ok but the next town has quite a few poor people and I shudder when I hear them swearing at kids in pushchairs and the way the kids are dressed and treated, the food you see them buying in the supermarkets.
And what about the binge drinking problem we have in this country? How did this happen and why is drink still cheap (special offers, buy one get one free in pubs) and readily available to kids?
News like this does nothing for the already negative reputation we have in Europe.
Where have we all gone wrong in this country, and how do we put it right again? We need to get back to traditional family values and forget about "keeping up with the Joneses". It's all about money ... but it shouldn't be.
What a sad sad situation. I for one would not hesitate to move back to Germany if I could earn a living to provide for my family and didn't have to leave ageing parents behind.

Agree with you CarWildcat - the idea of children (or entire families) eating their meal in front of a tv is really sad.... It is such an important time to spend with one another and gives children a chance to talk about their day.

I must live in a paralell universe,or be verty lucky,because my experiences are totally different to most of the others mentioned here.
We live within a mile of 90% of my extended family,so childcare is shared & the dd's get to play with their cousins,aunts ect most days.

When a local lad was causing problems,I spoke to his mum & she thanked me for letting her know before he did something really silly & got himself into real trouble.She asked me to let her know if he ever got up to anything again.He never did.Similarly,when my girls are older & if they were up to no good,I would expect my neighbours to tell them off & let me know.

We take the dd's to a resturant at the local pub whenever we can & are always welcomed.Likewise,yesterday I was shopping in the nearest town & 3 people stopped me in half an hour to cluck over the girls say how lovely they looked.And thats not a rare occurance by any means.

I know that there are real problems in this country,but don't think that its as bad as all that.The worst culprit in my opinion,would be the high house prices & ridiculous cost of living here.No wonder both parents are often working all hours-often it is the only way to keep a roof over your head.All the government initiatives in the world won't help until something is done about housing in this country.

Not sure if this has got much to do with it but i live in a small costal town called whitby, and used to work in a nice trendy wine bar. One day a abusive guy came out of the family room demanding his money back on his familys food(7 of them) because a women had changed her babys nappy on the floor in there (no where near him). He said it was disgusting and shouldnt be allowed. Think that just goes to show how less tollerent we have all got, no wonder were all worrying what other people think about us.

Hello! I am Canadian and DH and I often talk about moving, either back to Canada or elsewhere (prob not back to Canada though, as I think I've lost the ability to weather the cold winters!). I do think there is a tolerance problem when it comes to kids - I hate those signs that say "no more than 2 school kids at at time" etc. Can you imagine if there were signs that said "no more than 2 OAPs"? Or "sorry our shop is small, no one over 10 stone allowed". Why is that sort of discrimination allowed against kids? I think that although there are problems, there is also alot of opportunity. We live an hour from London, and my kids can see and do so much more than i ever got the chance to, simply because this is a small country and everything and everyone eventually comes to Britian. Recently i had the opportunity to attend a lecture given by an internationally acclaimed expert. I love that we can go over to Europe on holiday. We are not rich, but our children have certainly been able to see and do much much more than their cousins in canada. Also in Canada employees usually only get 10 days holiday a year. After the first year of employment, and that just sucks!!!

could one of the issues be that the US and the UK are thekind of countries that measure things like bullying?

The cost of living in this country is such that in most families with small children, both parents do have to work. And I'm not talking about working to afford a second home or a second holiday, but just to afford to pay the mortgage.

Expecting both parents to work isn't evil in itself - what would be the point of equal rights and co-education if girls weren't expected to reap the benefits (and pay their dues) as workers?

I think what eould be more equable all round and would teach children that both sexes are equally important as parents, would be a greater acceptance of part time working for men as well as women. If both parents could share the hands-on parenting more equally, what would that say to our kids?

Parents aren't valued by the workforce because they take too much time off when their kids are sick and they have to juggle their hours around childcare and then school holidays. The school year is set up in such a way that the six week summer holiday is a major headache for most parents and employers.

What I am heading towards with this rather disjointed post is that a holistic approach is needed to school and work if parents and children are to be able to enjoy being with each other without being frazzled. Working hours need to be adjusted to make them more child-friendly. The school year needs to be adjusted to make it more compatible with what most parents need.

What does this have to do with the report? Well, we're in a situation where employers are pretending that children don't exist, and schools are pretending that working parents don't exist (I exaggerate, bu only slightly). Children are devalued by the business world. Parents are made to feel gulty for having to put them first. And in a lot of cases, they have very little choice.

And once the child starts school, what do we do? We devalue the free time they have at home by piling on tons of homework and then expecting them to go to extra classes (ballet, swimming etc) on the basis of 'enjoyment' when really it's just more work.

Because society thinks children should be seen and not heard you get thr problem at restaurants and pubs and countless other places where they are seen as a nuisance before they've even stepped through the door.

Children grow up thinking they're a problem, and thinking that anyone they don't know is a potential danger. They can't just 'be' as I could when I was a child - and that was in the 1970's.

The report is spot on, but I think it's time to focus on why and how to change it.

I was looking at the unicef report and although Australia and New Zealand aren't ranked in the overall main result. If you look at some of the individual rankings they don't seem to fair too well. I find this interesting as I always think of these countries as being the ideal in terms of bringing up children etc and many of us dream of emigrating to these countries.

laska - why is australia ideal? is it the macho culture or the successful anti-immigration policies?

Anyway wordsmith (and others) - the report isn't about being able to go to a pub with children - although as it goes I've never been tutted at for taking kids to an eatery in the UK. The report is about things like "subjective well-being" - otherwise known as optimism, which I think is hugely misleading. The UK also scores badly on % of children immunised....I don't think I need to finish that argument. It's also about more important things like child poverty, relationships and general health and I think it's a great pity they mixed it all up like that really as it detracts from the issue

sorry that first sentence sounds harsher than I meant it too. really - why did you think of australia as ideal?

My family emigrated to south africa when i was 18 , i went with them and lived there for 8 years until i fell pg with dd and decided to come back for safety reasons, well 7 years down the line and i'm seriously thinking of going back. i work full time as cm and dh has 2 jobs. We JUST make ends meet. There is nothing for children to do where i live unless money is plentiful. Fresh food is very expensive but i consider it a necessary requirement for young ones. South africa is very child freindly and also has the added advantage of all my family!!!!

its ok senora, not offended. Don't think I worded that right anyway.

No country is ideal but from the point of view of space and access to outdoors lifestyle these countries seem to offer more. I have travelled to both. New Zealand is actually more appealing. However I agree on the points that you mentioned, no country is ever perfect and if I felt that strongly I would have emigrated by now .

My dh is southafrican and as much as I love the space and beauty I just can't get over the crime. Everyone lives in fear behind walls and carjacking is rife. Also the job situation is dire for white men...which I accept is necessary in order to redress the balance.

xx

Sewnora, I didn't mean to immply that all that matters is getting a restaurant meal with kids. It's meant as a symptom of the devaluing of children and parents in today's UK society.

As for other countries - I can't comment as I've only lived here. However one of my best friends lives and brought her children up in Amsterdam, with the red light district and all, and she says Dutch kids wouldn't dream of sleeping around and getting pregnant, they are brought up to respect their bodies more (I know teenage pg was included in the report.) Despite what you may imagine, sex is more sanctified there than it seems to be here - at least that's her experience.

but I don't think it's true that children and parents are devalued in the UK. wasn't the 1997 election landslide about education, education, education? The UK's maternity pay, family allowance, childminder system are all much better imo than Spain's (where mat pay is 16 weeks, family allowance and childminders non-existant and nurseries un-regulated), but there is not an eating establishment in the country that would turn away children. In fact all in all, I'd put Spain slightly behind the UK as a good place to bring up children (only slightly - swings and roundabouts), yet it came 5th in that report.

Haven't read the whole thread yet but agree with SP - my friends in Holland (which came second) and France have much less maternity leave than we do.

I'm pretty sure Dutch kids have as much as sex as British teens but are probably somewhat more savvy about contraception. Plus may feel less hopeless about what options they will have when they leave school?

Have skimmed the thread and agree with Aderyneryn, Custardo and Martianbishop.

But before we get too hand-wringy and start to over-analyse our society, I think we should bear in mind that:

1. Everyone has a chance of an education no matter what their background.
2. We have a welfare system and I think it is adequate. It should not be more than adequate as the point is that working is more profitable.
3. What is the definition of 'poverty' in these types of reports? A lot of the single parents in DSs school moan about the costs of outings and school-related activities, but they buy 'Bench' and other designer clothes for their kids? WTF? (DS gets a lot of clothes from ebay by the way....).
4. If there is a main ill in our society I think it is a blame culture where people have stopped taking responsibility for themselves, and media reports like this inflame it by upholding negative views instead of giving a more balanced picture by pointing out positives too e.g. 'it's not my fault that my kids left school at 16 it's because the teachers weren't good enough' etc

I have returned to raise my family in my lovely native West Wales and commute to work in Cardiff. I have worked all over the UK and have friends all over the country, and in my view, FWIW, on balance, I think that the UK is a great country to live in!

Sorry for the long post.

I've not read the whole thread but was a bit depressed to be in a pub today with my children and subjected to a stupid bag making tutting comments at me. She didn't even have the courage to say them directly to my face, I just got this muttering whenever I walked or rather ran past to grab oneof my 3 children. Eldest has autism and is a big 7 year old and you'd not know really and 4 year old often lead astray by him or vice versa and 18 month old on to p of that and I just want to go out once in a blue moon for a drink. Still end up apologising all over the place and feeling guilty that I have 3 children and that they may be making a noise. Sorry off topic a bit.

I think there is something fundamental about the British attitude to children ( especially other peoples' children) that runs deep ; it's the old "seen and not heard" thing:

Whenever legislation on smacking is brought up we all get up in arms about reserving the right to beat/smack our own children .

Try taking a child to eat in a restaurant or to a wedding . (I was once imprisoned in a room with lots of other mums and toddlers at a wedding away from the other guests by a bride who didn't want anything to ruin her reception. No food or toys - had to go out for chips afterwards. I kid you not...)

Try taking a pushchair on the tube/bus

God forbid you should try to bf a baby in public

Try kicking a ball around with your kids in the street - not allowed

Witness the lowly status of the SAHM (the hardest job I've ever done). Looking after children is minimum wage employment here

As a society I just don't think we like kids very much - something that has become very apparent to me since I had my own children
Also, the fact that we are all pursuing our own individual success ( like the US) rather than looking out for others in society just makes things worse. More pressure on children to succeed and compete.
Sorry, long , gloomy post..

The idea that we are all born equal in Britain and everyone has the same chances is absurd. Poverty breeds poverty. If you are born into poverty chances are you will live your life in poverty. It doesn't mean that no one ever gets out of poverty but it is a fact that social mobility is now much harder to achieve than in the past.

Dinosaur - Agree with you about Thatcher. I grew up in North London the 70's and 80's, which are looking relatively rosy compared to their aftermath where there is no social housing left except that to bribe people into becoming nurses and teachers.

Laksa -I've just - sort of - escaped to NZ (my boyfriend has a passport). Its such a relief. It really is pretty nice here. People are kind and this is how I feel Britain might be if it wasn't so full and also constantly bombarded with bad news. I'm in the South Island, in a small town. I flew over when I was pregnant and had my ds here. It was great - clean and lovely with my own room afterwards (!!!!). It wd potentially be very different I expect in central Auckland though. NZ seems to compare well to Australia too, which IMO is in complete denial about the continuing brutality of colonialism.

However, I am keen to return to London. There's so much to do and so much variety. I'm from there and I love it and it really upsets me that I can't really afford to live there unless I work in advertising or as an estate agent or something (jobs that help rather than hinder the situation being discussed don't pay too well, but the more people that do them the better. Put your body where your mouth is!). Overall I'd feel safer bringing up teenage kids in London then in a small town anywhere.

Why would you feel safer raising a teenager in London, than in a small town, Arabella?
Don't start the Australia/NZ debate, that could be another topic altogether
Although I didn't think NZ's track record for indigenous relations was any better than Australia's.......but that's off the subject!

I'd love it if the media would carry out a year long experiment of reporting news in a less sensationalist, less pessimistic way and see if the mood of the nation lifted.

I always like to think of the pay-it-forward theory. The more people you can make kind gestures towards, the more those people will make kind gestures.

I certainly think we suffer from a lack of responsibility and a lack of optimism in this country.

This report really wound me up. What about:

1. fantastic FREE primary school education in classes of 30 or below unlike the US

1. free fruit veg and milk in nurseries

1. great free parks (in out town certainly)

1. great health and dentist care - i think it is outstanding for children - we have had lots of hospital visits and they were fantastic - unlike the US

1. affordable food, clothing and shoes in supermarkets across the country - far cheaper than mainland Europe

1. free libriaries

1. loads of free shows and events in towns and cities

1. great, intelligent, pc kids tv

I live in a city; it has its problems but I see many happy kids everywhere in the park, enjoying the free splash park, cheap swimming pool etc

I agree there is much to improve and no child should live in poverty, but I get really fed up with Britain-bashing.

I would much rather live here than elsewhere in Europe or the US as would the thousands of people aspiring to live here.

And to add I have two friends who left New Zealand as 20 year olds as it was so boring - one used to smoke lots of cannabis as there was nothing to do.

quiet doesn't always mean safe - it can create other problems for teenagers - they don't all become sporty outdoor types - they can become bored and find entertainment in any way possible!

now I'm ranting!

I got great state maternity benefits - I work part-time and it helped a lot

My dh gets parental leave and 7 weeks holiday now as he is a Dad - not all UK companies are rubbish

we have two kids under five and have not had a bad restaurant experience yet in the UK- I am not lying. In fact the restaurants near here would go out of business if they did not welcome kids the town is so full of them.

restaurants in mainland Europe can be friendly but do not come with high chairs or changing mats unlike here.

I agree there is a certain type of person who tuts - usually in their 50s and kids have grown up. My dad is one of them sadly, but this happens in any country. It happened to us in France.