Unicef: out of all the industrialised nations Britain comes bottom.

[Callisto]

Anyone suprised? The full report is here: unicef report

My children are dual nationals.

I've got a strong suspicion that at least one of them will bolt across the pond.

After all, we live in a rented flat the size of a postage stamp, we're not 'well connected' and the children have Scottish accents.

I have to say, they'd stand a better chance of getting on better elsewhere.

At the end of the day, this place is just too expensive to live in.

Agree expat - it's just too expensive. Ridiculously so for a lot of people.

I really sometimes am tempted to buy a caravan, pack up the girls and our meagre savings and head off round Europe as a traveller.

Mind you, having a Scottish accent is one hell of an advantage in a lot of parts of the world. I reckon if I could choose an accent for my kids, that would be it.

The longer I live here, the less of a future I see here for our family and children .

And that's one of the saddest things I've had to admit and accept.

A Scottish accent is a MAJOR advantage in America. Huge.

It won't take the girls long to puzzle that out.

And then I can't fool myself that they'll be off. Because, on the whole, excepting a few of the larger cities such as New York and San Francisco, there's more space to be had for less money.

I haven't got time to get into this now (I was skim reading when I am at work) but the US is not far behind the UK in this report so is this situation just about the cost of living? IMHO it must also be about cultural things too

My first post at mumsnet, and this topic caught my interest, since the US and UK are both on the bottom. Long post...sorry..just musings from a US expat in the UK. (Have been lurking at MN a long time, and you all have been so helpful about lots of topics.)

My DH and I moved from US to UK about a year ago, and I had DD here. There are many lovely things about this country and we have no regrets about the move, but we had no idea kids were so hated here before we moved. (We also had no idea the NHS was so paternalistic), but that's another topic...and we did lots of independent research.) We love visiting France and plan to holiday there again this summer because kids are so appreciated. In the US, you can take kids about anywhere, and anywhere to dinner and there's no problem as long as they're behaved. BTW, we take our DD a lot of places and have yet to be turned away (although I'm sure the day will come for this to happen). Is there a law that kids aren't allowed in restaurants? (not talking about the pubs) If not, I'd say just go out for dinner anyway with your behaved kids and don't worry about what others think.

It's interesting that when we take walks with DD and our dog, the English always comment on how nice our dog is and always want to pet her, but most of the time DD is completely ignored. Everywhere we go in France, DD and dog are given attention.

I've met so many wonderful mums here, and they usually laugh at my 'don't worry about what people think' attitude. I admit I have down days and hide inside, but it also makes me happy when a friend tells me...."we did go out to dinner with our kids, and it was okay." Seriously, why not just go out anyway?

As for the report, I have strong opinions about the pros/cons of both the US and UK and other places I've lived. Love your time off in the UK to have a baby, as there's NO guaranteed time off with pay in the US..it's up to specific companies to implement their own policies. (The Family and Medical Leave Act only applies to companies with 50 or more employees and is not paid leave.) This is probably why I had my DD over 40..because had to work full-time to make ends meet when I was younger, and had a long commute. No regrets, and love so much about living in England.

In the US, there's no way DD would have went to a private (what we call fee-paying..same thing as independent schools here) school, but here we plan to enroll her in one to get what we think is a better education. Also, UK doesn't appreciate girls' athlethics I don't think, whereas soccer (I know football) isn't played much by girls here, but it's real big in the US and in US studies, it's been proven that sport improves a girl's self-esteem and may also help with reducing teen pregnancy. Will educate DD about Mia Hamm and the time the US girls won the gold medal in the Olympics.

Love the support for breastfeeding here, but can't understand why with all the support, there's no law that gives you the right to BF like Scotland has. Theoretically, you could get arrested for BF in public, so I was always nervous about doing it. In the US, BF isn't as commom (kind of hard to keep at it when have to go back to work), but most states have laws that give you the right to BF.

Also, I'm no expert in welfare laws, but the US did enact a welfare reform law when Clinton was president and it did put more people back to work and helped a bit to end the cycle of people expecting handouts from the govt., but then many parents had to go to work and many of the childcare facilites are either too expensive or inadequate so children lost out.

Bottom line...I think we should all try and complain less and do what we can within our own families to raise good children and just do what we can to make a difference.

Also, I'm very interested in hearing comments back (good and bad) about US/UK musings. I love adventure and living here. However, when people ask what I like the most/least about living here, under the 'least' category the number 1 item is the disregard for children...sad, but my opinion.

It all started with Thatcher.

It makes me feel nauseous to hear current Tory tosspots trying to blame it all on the current government. Toerags.

Expatinelngland don't forget that they won the women's world cup as well.

I agree with what you said about women's sports but I also am sad that my DD will miss out on little league. Children in the US get a huge benefit from participating in sports outside of school. There isn't really any way for them to do that here. There are loads of complaints about children eating bad and being sedentary. I think Little league could provide a solution here.

I just heard a story that immediately made me think about how the UK did in this report. A friend was telling me that her sister's children are looked after by a childminder one day a week and by the mil another day (the 2 days that her sis is working). I innocently asked if her mother (who lives a few minutes away and is retired) wasn't jealous and feeling left out. She told me that not at all, that she actually didn't want to commit herself to doing it because she was retired and wanted her time free to do as she pleases... WTF???!!! One day a week?? This sounds totally weird and would be absolutely unthinkable where I come from (we did really badly overall because we're a poor country, but came second in family and friends relations). In the same situation my mother and mil would be fighting over dd. I could maybe understand a full week from 8am to 7 pm (even so, not really), but one or even 2 days?? What do you brits think? Is this an odd example or a generalised way of thinking?

I find this sort of thing with my MIL to. Now I am a SAHM so I don't need her to look after DD but she hardly sees my dd. Once every two weeks. She only lives 15 minutes away. I usually have to take DD to see her. My Mom lives on the other side of the pond so my MIL is the only local granny she has. I'm jealous of my Sister and brother as my mom sees their kids most days even if it is to stop by for a quick hug. I saw my Granny most days growing up. It makesw me feel like my DD is missing out.

Paula-although it's not baseball there are lots of junior sports teams in the UK. My brother plays for the village cricket team (starts with under 8s) as well as a local football team. DD's friend plays in junior tennis tournaments (under 7s) and there are swimming teams etc.

I think I must be really oblivious to others' disapproval though as I have lived all over the UK and never made to feel uncomfortable taking DD out to restaurants, galleries etc. We avoid Pizza Hut and Wacky Warehouses like the plague andjust go where we would anyway. It's a shame others on this thread have had such bad experiences.

I think it's odd. I am looking forward to GCs at some stage (not for a few decades yet please lord!) and from what I've seen of my parents and mil with their GCs it's nothing like being a parent - all of the fun and very little of the responsibility. No, 5 days a week would be too much (and I think that some people take the p* expecting GPs to cover for a full-time job) but one day would be perfect as far as I can see. It seems to be all tied up with the fact that many people don't seem to really like kids here - they're a pita that you get rid of asap.

marialuisa - I agree with you on that. My DS#1 is involved with a cricket team and does karate demonstrations and mini-competitions. It's all there if you know where to look

marialuisa, it's not a question of having bad experiences at restaurants, it's a question of not being able to take children to most of them. Where I live children are allowed in maybe 20% of the places. We don't go to pizzxa hut or mcdonalds and although there are a few alternatives theyr'e always full on weekends. This is absolutely unthinkable in mediterranean countries, usually there's a nice lady who even entertains your child so that you can have a bit of peace...

marialuisa, it's not a question of having bad experiences at restaurants, it's a question of not being able to take children to most of them. Where I live children are allowed in maybe 20% of the places. We don't go to pizzxa hut or mcdonalds and although there are a few alternatives theyr'e always full on weekends. This is absolutely unthinkable in mediterranean countries, usually there's a nice lady who even entertains your child so that you can have a bit of peace...

I live in London have lived in or near here all my life, in fact and can hardly get down the street for people admiring the DDs, engaging them in conversation, giving them sweets etc. We take them all over, I breastfed wherever and whenever and have never had a single negative comment from anyone. I don't get this child unfriendly thing at all.

Where I live there are lots of cheap (or free) things to do for children. The council has active sports co-ordinators who offer schoolchildren the chance to try out sports at or after school. Currently my son (aged 9) does rugby (free) once a week at lunchtime and has free football coaching one evening. He is also in the school football team which is run by the janitor and parents and is also free and plays in an under 10s football league. Girls football is also very popular in this area.
I think the point that I'm trying to get over is that some local authorities do organise or try to organise a lot of things for children and families so the bleak picture is not the same everywhere.
I do however agree with a lot which has been said here. I think that Britain is a very unequal and polarised society and one where children (and families) are often seen as a drain on society rather than as an asset or the country's future, which is very, very sad. Also lots of adults are scared of children, and particularly teenagers. Fears which have been played on to a certain extent by the media.
As for eating out as a family, we just can't afford to do that. At the moment even going for a McDonalds is a luxury.

I thought Tugamommy's 13.05 post was v v interesting....

What struck me was not that it is unusual here for grandmothers to want to help out with children, but that there is no expectation that they will; Tugamommy is surprised by the grandmother not wanting to, so there must be a difference in attitude.

I'm lucky that my mum has the attitude that it is her job to be available to help out and that that is more important than her other stuff (painting classes, U3A etc), but I think if someone were to say on MN they expected their mum to have that attitude, they would be considered to be taking her for granted and told she had a right to a life of her own.

We don't tend to eat out in the evening with DDs because they are aged 4 and 1. Oh yes, and we can't afford it But I do see it somewhere in our future.

We do the odd pub-lunch and cafe visit and eat out when we are on holiday. At the moment it is easier to eat out at lunch-times than in the evening when the children will be too tired.

tugamommy - One of my close friends is in the situation where her retired parents won't commit to taking her DD for one day per week and she is very sad about it. On the other side of the coin, however, my SIL's mother looks after her dd one day per week and one of my other friends' parents look after her 2 boys 2 days per week. So perhaps it's down to the personality of the parents and in this country it is seen as socially Ok to say no or not offer.

Libby Brooks in todays Guardian

good article.

I think we should blame all the problems of society on the ageing baby boomer 'me' generation who are busy spending all their considerable wealth on jetting round the world pursuing the meaning of life.

Leaving their children (us) up to our eyeballs in debt, unable to buy a house, and struggling to cope with our children without support.

Well, it makes a change from teenagers and single mums, doesn't it?

thanks winnie, great article

My first posting and have only managed to skim this thread as trying to make tea but on the subject of the reporting of that poor little two year old's death, report it to OFCOM. They will need to know when the program was aired and by which channel / radio station. The number is 020 7981 3040, option 2 for tv and radio. My husband has just done this as he had to turn the radio off yesterday, he was so upset. It's good to vent and if it helps make some difference, then all the better.

I agree with Shnitzel.DD is only 18m and every thrusday we go for pizza. not in pizza hut or the like, just a normal restaurant. We took her absolutely everywhere with us since she was a week old. never ever crossed my mind that someone might object (I hope it won't when I have my second). why should it? some people love her,others don't even see her but I've never found anyone that has objected to her presence. I'll probably make a scene if they do actually. what right have they got? maybe is it a london thing? I ask those of you who are not in london. when you say that some places do not accept kids do you mean they have a policy? or is it just the athmosphere that it's not welcoming?

am I oblivious to it because I am a foreigner and don't give a sh*te??

sometimes really is a case the grass is greener... etc: the country where I come from is famous for their love for children but you will struggle to find highchairs in most restaurants, babychanging facilities and women brestfeeding in public. also where here DD steals smiles and oohh ahhh everytime we go out, she becames invisible back home.

must say, not sure about education TBH - too early and far too segregated IMO