Unicef: out of all the industrialised nations Britain comes bottom.

[Callisto]

Anyone suprised? The full report is here: unicef report

x-posted Chandra

You can take toddlers to McD's, shop cafes, park cafes, horrible soft play cafes & it is not remotely traumatic!
As they get better you take them to pizza hut, local pasta places, Nandos etc, which are all still really family friendly before you graduate to anything that is going to be stressful!

I think that's somewhat unfair... why children can not be part of a family experience until they have the proper credentials?

I would not take DS to an expensive place used by couples for romantic dinners (mostly because DS would be horribly tired by then, and he would not be able to appreciate the delicacies in the menu), but I hate to take DS to children places where the food is anything but unhealthy, just because they are such social parias at this age.

Yeah, I think is unfair but it's the route I'm following, not out of personal decission as much as social pressure.

Probably is, but it seemed the least stress method for me. Anyhow a side issue really, although I think we are both agreeing that it is indicative of cultural attitudes towards children.

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I think as a society we could learn an awful lot by listening to Camila Batmanghelidjh

I hate that too Locksikas - more ghettoisation of children.

Agree Winnie, she is amazing as is the work she does.

I have been really shocked by the no children at weddings thing. They don't seem to be allowed at funerals either. Its so sad that children should not be allowed to witness these important social rituals.

It all started with Thatcher IMO. That 'I'm alright Jack, so screw you!' attitude.

People know all their rights, but think they have no responsibilities to society.

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Very quick hijack please Locksikas are you in Athens ?? Love the chatname by the way

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winnie, thanks for the link. Camila Batmanghelidjh is also quoted in Polly Toynbee (sp??)' s article I mentioned earlier (but I can't do links, being a complete technophobe)

what i find incredulous is some of the posts int his thread. and how its leaning towards a social acceptibility of children.

we cant go out for meals with children

we cant let them outside

i think you will find that the poorest families will never get to go for a meal in the evening with their children.

i think your'll find the poorest families usually live in what you are terming ghettoised communitities where children actually do go out.

the fact that you are internalising this report and matching your own relatively (probably) positive approaches is indicative of the self absorbed attitute you doth protesteth much about. little outrage at TSAPs post. where children go to school in fuck all uniform - why? there is a uniform allowence - so why?

why is having a baby when you are poor and young attractive? becuase i would suggest there is a lack of ambition and love.

why do those same parents by the time the kid is a school - not rightly give a shit?

becuase they found out - that they are still skint, with no hope and now the extra burden of a kid.

listen,
the opportunities and encouragement are not there to certain sections of the community.

how is one supposed to have aspirations when your school work is shit, the education system is designed in a way which aint gonna give you much help. and you dont want to be there anyway becuase no- one has actually said to you as a child " you CAN be anything you want to be and i WILL support you."

children from the poorest nations in the world walk miles to go to basic english lessons. with encouragement fromt heir parents and the ambition that they want their children to be more to have more to have a better lifestyle.

why don't these parents want this? and more importantly - why wont the government invest i these parents - apart from a sure start programme for the very poorest people - which is at best patchy.

invest in todays parents. Invest in todays parenting.

bascially agree custy but think they are sides of same coin

we don't like kids much in this country, we don't trust them

ditto people on benefits/low incomes etc

poor kids get the fkn worst we can offer

I think children in Britain suffer from differing types of poor lifestyles.

On one hand, poverty is far too prevalent in a country that should have hardly any. We have a welfare state, a national health service and housing provision. But why are they so poorly administered that they are failing the very people they should be protecting?

But on the other hand, we have unacceptably high numbers of middle-class children on anti-depressants because they feel under so much pressure to perform at school and deprived of a normal childhood in the pursuit of success, often at the hands of neurotic parents who fear a paedophile lurks around every corner and will not allow them one iota of freedom.

Add to the fact, as Filly said, we as a nation do not particularly like children and it is no wonder they feel alienated, unloved and unhappy.

custardo -the 'ghettoised' thing was with regard to the way we corral kids away from adults, not to communities. And I do think that social acceptablilty of children is very important. The point of this survey wasn't just about the poorest and most disadvantaged in society but all kids even middle-class with the so-called advantages. Whilst the poorest may be going to hell in a handcart and there is lots of governmental handwringing about them - not very effective I daresay - the less disadvantaged are having problems of a different nature. Poverty isn't new sadly, if the situation has got worse many of the the problems must lie elsewhere?

We have parents who lack the confidence to actually step in an Parent theyir kids.

We have been conned into thinking that time with the kids has to mean expense. It doesn't, it can be a walk to the park, or time shared in the house

We don't let out children be children for long enough.

oUr society may not give children enough time and attention, and we do not raise our chilren to respect themselves or others. They lack the ability to put other peoples feelings into the picture. Thir own lack of self worth drives much of the antisocial behaviour.

Increasing numbers of children cannot behave well enough to recieve any sort of reasonable education

I wasn't shocked or surprised at this report but I was surprised that so many people (though not on here!) were in denial about this.

Having lived in social housing for 5 1/2 years now I can look on this situation from the lower income angle and what I see makes this report true.

Most of the parents around here are on benefits, they have never worked and refuse to do so. I have seen now, on more than 4 occassions, children get to school leaving age and the first thing that happens is they sign on. The parents ambition for their children is to rely on handouts and it is heartbreaking that these children have so little respect for themselves that they don't want something better. They could have it worse, at 16 I earned 75p per hour on a YTS and it was ridiculous but I enjoyed the fact I earned my own money, even though I couldn't have possibly survived on it the money was still mine. I have one neighbour whose child left school and went onto incapacity when there is nothing wrong for her but they are hoping at some point she will get a mobility car for them.

There is such a stigma about being in social housing, I usually just say I rent because I don't want anyone to judge dts on that alone. There is no desire to do better because why work when you can get more doing nothing? We have another rent increase due and no one but a handful complain because only a handful are paying their own rent, they don't care about sticking up for the rest of us. I also have to deal with people hearing I am a SAHM, knowing where I live and assuming I take benefits. I send my sons to school in another town where there is a better mix of pupils and not just 90% on benefits, I don't want them thinking they can just laze about at 16.

People in Britain are judgemental and harsh and the class thing is such a divide now. Children are becoming so hard faced about everything and I blame this attitude of not trying for anything. What is the point to life then if you don't want to do more than roam the streets getting drunk? As I said they lack self-esteem and respect and as a nation it is expected someone else will hand it to you.

(Having heard stories of the "middle-class" cut-throat parenting I am glad I don't have that to contend with also, that is more the affluenza scenario.)

A lot of what has been mentioned in this thread are the reasons that we left after 11yrs in the UK and returned to Australia. No country is perfect but we couldn't make the UK work for us, with 2 dd's and 2 average salaries. When dd1 was born we were living in SW London but when she turned 2, decided to move out to Surrey/Hampshire border. However our salaries would have dropped by about a third, so we both still needed to commute into London for work each day. When dd2 was born, I took maternity leave for 10mths until we left the UK, but after the paid portion stopped (and luckily with my employer that lasted for 6mths) we just couldn't make ends meet on dh's salary. He was leaving the house at 6.45am, getting home at about 7pm each night, and was generally too tired to want to do much most evenings or on the weekends. Had we stayed I would have to have returned to work, in London, and both dd's would have been in care again for 10ish hrs a day. We found it very difficult to have any sort of quality family time together with the hours spent commuting and then how tired everyone was. It was a catch22, we had moved out of London to try and find a nicer area for our children to grow up in, but then had to spend so much time and money going back into London for work to pay for it all. We've been back in Australia for 4mths now and I would definitely agree that weather plays a part. It's a lot less effort to have the tv off and play in the back yard when it's warm and sunny. But saying that, it is generally a lot more family friendly here, most of the pubs, even the newly renovated up market ones, have outside, shade covered play areas, and I haven't yet come across somewhere where I didn't feel welcome, having small children. On Australia Day the local council put on a morning of free activies, we didn't open our wallets at all, drinks, food, rides for the kids, face painting, all free. We were amazed. In the local parks there are sports activities for different ages groups each week, some either free or a few dollars per visit. I found it quite easy to find cheap or free ways to fill dd1's time when we first moved here and she wanted to find new friends to play with. Every country has its good and bad points, but I have just found life a lot easier here, with a young family, and people are generally happier and friendlier. Families need more support than what they are getting, middle class as well as poorer families. We were working our butts off, having little time at home with our children and just making ends meet and weren't eligible to anything other than child benefit. There was a lot we liked about the UK, we wouldn't have lived there 11yrs otherwise, but once dd2 arrived, we knew it wasn't the option for us long term, we just weren't ever goint to achieve the work/life balance we wanted and give our children a similiar childhood experience that we had.

In our NZ newspaper it said that NZ was the worst place - so I guess every country is running bad or good news stories. I will read the Unicef report tonight after I have shared a meal with ds and talked to him.

TwoIfBySea, very helpful description of your circumstances.

I agree - the whole class system and the divide between rich and poor is a big problem in the UK, I think. Also, having two types of schooling (private and state) seems strange to me (I am not English, by the way).

I find the UK is a very expensive place to live and without the right connections (school, parents, class, money etc) it is quite difficult to do well.

Twoifbythesea, thanks for having the courage to post your experience. It mirrors my anecdotal experience, and it is nice to have someone else saying something similar.

I think the unfortunate fact is that once people realise what they can get for nothing, the payback for working seems pitifully small.

It is obviously not easy to manage on benefits, nor a luxurious life, but if you compare it to the life you would achieve by working, it is a pretty good deal for the effort put in.

I think that this sends a message to young people in those circumstances that there is no point having aspirations, an education etc. There is no hope for you, and so learn to be "happy" with dependency, as it is better than the alternative.