Maybe we should be very glad that Obama is going after all?

[Jupiter2Mars]

.. and is being replaced with someone with a very different outlook.

This is what Obama said yesterday:

" And then, in Germany, I’ll visit with Chancellor Merkel, who’s probably been my closest international partner these past eight years. I’ll also signal our solidarity with our closest allies, and express our support for a strong, integrated, and united Europe. It’s essential to our national security and it's essential to global stability. And that’s why the Transatlantic Alliance and the NATO Alliance have endured for decades under Democratic and Republican administrations. "

Laugh away. Anyone who works with people of different nationalities, as I do, is confronted daily with the fact that the rest of the world is incredulous that we could be so stupid.
If you want to be taken seriously, you have to show yourselves to be serious people. We've thrown that away.

The UK has always regarded the "Special Relationship" as being far more meaningful than the US does.
Some British PMs have been quite embarassing the way they have fawned on whoever the US have elected President.
Have a bit of dignity !

The 2 countries sometimes have similar interests, but the US prioritises its own interests very ruthlessly and UK politicians can easily become collateral damage when they don't realise this.

Trump has always been totally ruthless in business deals and is unlikely to go soft suddenly on the UK when he sees he has the country over a barrel - Congress wouldn't let him anyway.

He'll offer the UK "TTIP on Steroids" with all the rights US companies would love to have, to sue the UK government whenever government policy - on e.g. the nhs or workers' rights - might affect their profits.

Trump has made it very clear he is anti trade deals full stop. He wants more protectionism for the US which will be bad for all their trade partners. There is nothing in his agenda for either Americans or the rest of the world (except probably Russia) to celebrate. Whether or not he follows through on any of his rhetoric is of course another matter.

Sorry, I've lost my post.

Essentially, Trump is one of many politicians or candidates whose main objective is to only put their own country first. Nationalist movements are rising across Europe.
Thankfully, the counterbalance is emerging too, but from the clash of polar opposites we can only expect unrest.

I suspect you'll want Obama back soon, even if he's BFF with Angela.

Yes but when he says our special relationship he says it in English. It sounds mo'real

nooka the difficult thing with Trump is that he has said contradictory things and he has no public service record to look at to help with a guess as to which, if any, he actually means.
So, yes he has said a lot of protectionist things but he has also talked about the "great trade deals" he's going to negotiate. ("Great" for who though?)

It strikes me he is a narcissist. Nothing could shake his belief in himself, and the world is there for his benefit. So, the only thing that we can know is that he's going to try to effect change because what someone with NPD could not bear is people thinking that he's a washout.

The UK is desperate for trade deals post EU. Our negotiating position is extremely weak. I don't know what we can sell to the US, apart from whisky, since they are hardly going to need our financial services products or IT skills. On the other hand, we might be up for buying more Ford cars if VW suddenly moves behind the EU's protectionist system of tariffs. But that's trade deal with the trade going in the wrong direction for the UK although it would please Trump no end.

So, yes he has said a lot of protectionist things but he has also talked about the "great trade deals" he's going to negotiate. ("Great" for who though?)

There should be no "but" in that sentence. For him it's all about the US.

I understand that he's a nationalist. However I don't see why there shouldn't be a but since two countries have to sign a trade deal. So unless he's planning to hold a gun to another country's head to insist they buy American goods or services then there has to be something in it for the other country too.

What he told his supporters was akin to holding a gun to the other country. He seems convinced he will get what he wants.
But the key is that his deals won't be better than with Obama for the UK.

what was the (metaphorical) gun?

The American political establishment generally consider that it would be preferable for them to deal with Europe as a unified bloc, rather than as a bunch of independent countries all pulling in different directions.

Absolutely. Should that make us comply and embrace ever closer union, as Obama wanted? Certainly not.

Obama made it clear, after the result of Brexit, that he wants a United States of Europe. He said Brexit was 'a setback on the road to an integrated Europe'. Clearly, he is with Merkel on this one. He and Merkel expected Britain to meekly comply, without a shadow of a chance of influencing or reforming the EU. (Note Merkel's contemptuous treatment of Cameron when he sought reform; and her bullish attempts, like Juncker, to tell the UK it had to vote a certain way and wasn't going to get any favours. This was before the referendum).

The UK was supposed to keep funding an EU dominated by Germany (with a little bit of help from France), yet have no real input or influence. Bugger that.

The hypocrisy of Obama is amazing. Can you imagine if the UK lectured the US and told them they had to relinquish their sovereignty and enter a political union with all the nations of the American continent?

FFS a blind man on a galloping horse can see that Germany is more important to the US than the UK is, and has been for years. The 'special relationship' is the equivalent of getting the naughty boy at nursery to do what you want be calling him 'My Special Helper' and giving him the job of sharpening the pencils.

💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩

The UK had lots of both influence and input. Special deals all over the place. Well it will be all gone soon enough, and Europe damaged too. How that benefits the UK is beyond me. Some people seem to have very short memories :(

What is likely to happen is that Trump will see the isolated UK as desperate to make deals. Great position to be in.
The UK may not be treated last in relation to the EU, only because it will be seen as an easier target. The whole of the EU should be harder to screw-up with.
The likes of Trump will encourage splits to reign, instead.

About the imaginary gun read the above. But I didn't mean there is one, earlier. Just that the way he talked about trade was more like forcing deals down other countries' throats, than mutually beneficial.

Perhaps you should read up and see his speeches from the campaign.

Is it possible that Germany/rest of EU will be more likely to make better trade deals with us, if they are frozen out of the US?

Just trying to find a silver lining here!

Is it possible that Germany/rest of EU will be more likely to make better trade deals with us, if they are frozen out of the US?

As opposed to the free trade deal the UK already had?

No, the EU is more likely to trample over the UK in dealing with any other country, including the US.

I just thought if we're ALL going to be shafted by Trump, the EU might not try to shaft us so much?

Nah, I guess not.

Much as it would be nice to have a fair trade deal with the US (i.e. not TTIP, or worse), the US isn't really where the interest is at any more. India, China and Brazil would all be better.

About the special relationship - I regretting writing that because I know that its mostly been nothing more than spin and flattery on behalf of UK politicians for at least 60 years. I did think that Obama would have been more diplomatic in his speech, but I am realising that I don't really know Obama.

One question though for the Obama fans and the Trump haters: is it usual for an ex-president to speak about how a current president, as Obama has said he will do. He says he'll be talking about him as a private person, but he knows his words will be broadcast because they came out of a former president's mouth. I think its not very classy.

I don't know if there is a precedent for it, but why wouldn't he? I don't see why Obama would suddenly lose the right to speak out.

I don't really know what you mean by 'classy'. It certainly wasn't classy of Trump to hound Obama for years over his parentage.

The right thing to do, the accepted thing to do, when your time in power is over, is to stand back and let your successors have their shot at the job.

Whether, the job in question was the most senior political leader of a country, or it is manager of the England football team, or even team leader for half a dozen other admin staff, you don't critique your successor.

This is what every prime minister has done as far back as i can remember, even Tony Blair, who by all accounts had been at war with GB. It is what Bush did for Obama, what Clinton did for GW Bush, what Bush snr did for Clinton, what Reagan did for Bush snr and so on.

Agreed there's nothing very classy about how Trump has behaved. As Michelle Obama used to say "when they go low, we go higher" or to use another cliche: two wrongs, don't make a right!

I think Obama feels very worried and doesn't want Trump to become the voice of the US.
He's been very, extremely even, careful with his words, but I'm sure he's decided that keeping quiet is the worse option.

The idea that Obama should just shut up and accept these kinds of people and these ideas is..."not classy".

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/richard-spencer-speech-npi/508379/