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Ched Evans Cleared - I Still Believe Her

560 replies

ChampagneCommunist · 14/10/2016 14:45

Just seen this in the BBC website. His poor, poor victim

OP posts:
alreadytaken · 20/10/2016 22:08

prh you are perpetuating myths again as in "she appeared to have recovered her balance by the time she got to the hotel"

this despite me quoting to you from the statement of the receptionist - a statement they would not change when directly offered £50k to do so - that she was unsteady and clinging to McDonald. She was also reported to be glassy eyed and did not respond to a direct question - yet a few minutes later she was apparently able not only to consent to but to instigate sex. Pull the other one.

You ignore anything that does not fit your argument, displaying that you are a rape apologist.

The evidence of her ex's is being discussed as if it was truth. The jury may have believed it but they were unaware that the witnesses could have copied the defendant's evidence. The young woman denied all or part of their evidence and that is why I say " I believe her" - and I dont believe the witnesses. Nor do I believe either defendant in the original trial. They wold say she consented , wouldnt they.The only thing they said I believe is that she was sick when the first defendant left.

weveallkissedafrogor2 · 20/10/2016 22:34

And that is what you believe, and that is what I believe.
Rape is abhorrent.
In this case I do not believe she was raped.
No going round in circles will change my mind or yours. Our opinions do not matter to any court. There is no need to call names or be abusing towards each other. You have joined a debate where there will be a difference of opinion.
I will not apologise and I would not expect anyone else to.
Goodnight all!

SooWrites · 20/10/2016 22:42

in my opinion asking someone for sex after going out on the piss to a bar 2wks after waking up in an empty hotel room with a sore foof from a drunken night out and not remembering what happened is a bit too soon!!!!

And that's fine, for you. If, god forbid, something similar ever happens to you, feel free to wait as long as you deem necessary before having sex again.

What you have no right to do is decide that this teenager cannot have been raped because she behaved differently to how you think you would behave in similar circumstances.

The police believed she had been raped based CE's own words.

Birdandsparrow · 20/10/2016 22:45

I'll just repeat that in case frog missed it The police believed she had been raped based CE's own words.

Datun · 21/10/2016 01:10

weveallkissedafrogor2

  1. please google rape myths and read up on the variety of reasons rape victims sometimes have sex quite soon afterwards.
  1. The victim flatly denied having sex with the witness after her encounter with Evans. She said it was two months prior to her encounter.
  1. The witness had been friends with Evans for 8 years.
avamiah · 21/10/2016 01:43

The facts are his original conviction was deemed unsafe as new evidence had came to light, been uncovered which the jury in the original trial didn't know about.
This was put before the Appeal Court Judges and they decided that a new jury needed to consider this new evidence (information) and he was granted a re trial . The bottom line is that when the new jury heard the new evidence about the girls sexual past and previous relationships it put enough "Reasonable Doubt" into their minds that they had to bring in a verdict of NOT GUiLTY.
In my opinion he probably is Guilty but Probably is not DEFINATALY.
So In a Court of Law he is deemed NOT GUILTY.

OrchidsAndLace · 21/10/2016 01:46

Having sex soon after being raped absolutely does not mean you weren't raped. You could have sex the next day and it would make no difference and there are all sorts of reasons why someone might do that, like trying to erase the memory of the rape for example.

2. The victim flatly denied having sex with the witness after her encounter with Evans. She said it was two months prior to her encounter.

This was contradicted by the witness' mother though, who says she saw them in bed together at the time he stated (two weeks after the incident with Evans).

merrymouse · 21/10/2016 06:16

As far as I understand the evidence was allowed on the basis that it gave strength to CE's claim that sex was consensual because it was supposed to be beyond coincidence that he would know that she would say those things during consensual sex.

The evidence would not have been allowed if used purely to show she couldn't be a rape victim because rape victims can't have sex after a rape.

However, it's interesting to hear somebody forcefully drawing that conclusion. We can only hope the jury were somehow better informed.

HillaryFTW · 21/10/2016 07:01

Good point, merry.

Frog, you are making up stuff with respect to the victim deciding she didn't want her mum to know as she was ashamed so she would pretend to have memory loss. That's total invention.

But as you are determined to ignore the comments of rape victims about their experiences, I say "meh" to you.

alreadytaken · 21/10/2016 07:58
  1. The victim flatly denied having sex with the witness after her encounter with Evans. She said it was two months prior to her encounter.

This was contradicted by the witness' mother though, who says she saw them in bed together at the time he stated (two weeks after the incident with Evans).

Amazingly it is possible to be in bed with someone and not have sex with them. On the evidence of the witness whose mother gave statement this had happened on several occasions and when his mother asked if they had had sex on that occasion he said no. So his mother's evidence, if permitted as hearsay, would have to be he told her they didnt have sex. Either he lied in court or he lied to his mother but his mother certainly cant confirm they had sex when he told her they didnt.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 21/10/2016 08:36

frog has come unarmed to a battle of wits Sad

Thats why i have been lurking...too many clever, eloquent people on here for me

PinkissimoAndPearls · 21/10/2016 08:55

What is terrifying is that people like Frog are jurors. This is why we don't report. I'm sick of the number of times I've had to say that recently.

SooWrites · 21/10/2016 09:11

There really should be some kind of aptitude test required before jury duty.

I genuinely don't understand how most rape myths still exist these days. I kinda get the women should take responsibility for the own safety/attempt to protect themselves from rape. I wholly disagree with it but I understand why those people think that way.

But Frog's line of thinking makes no sense to me at all.

venusinscorpio · 21/10/2016 09:39

I think the point is that although they didn't admit the evidence on the grounds of her having sex too soon after a rape, they still got it into the trial by the back door. I'm sure the defence were perfectly aware that the jurors would make that connection and are susceptible to rape myths such as this.

HillaryFTW · 21/10/2016 09:43

Yy Venus

I would prefer jury trials were scrapped, TBH, for all crimes.

At the least, a period of jury service should begin with a proper training day about responsibilities, example cases, allowable evidence eyc.

CarrieLouise25 · 21/10/2016 10:18

Oh god yes. If my fate has to be decided on the facebook/twitter thickos trolls on a jury. Well. #whywomendontreport

Datun · 21/10/2016 10:21

According to stats there is a direct correlation between jurys aquiting and how much of the sexual past of the victim is heard.

And yes, already taken, the mother had no way of knowing if sex had taken place, plus he lied to her originally. All very shaky.

prh47bridge · 21/10/2016 10:38

Well that nicely and pompously put me back in my box, prh, didn't it?

My last post was not attempting to put you back in your box. My sincere apologies if that is how I came across. I was just trying to explain the importance the courts attach to the presumption of innocence and the rights of the accused. Perhaps I phrased it badly. I understand that you disagree with the decision made by the Court of Appeal. That is fine. You have every right to do so. I can set out the process by which they arrive at their decisions and the weight they give to certain considerations such as the presumption of innocence. I can say what I think the judges are driving at in their judgement although, without a transcript, it is difficult to be certain (and it may be difficult even with a transcript). But I cannot convince you they were right and I am not attempting to do so.

Why would either you or the court of appeal think there were more points of similarity than there were

The court did not count numbers of similarities. That was me identifying the things I could see in the judgement, mainly in response to people who thought there was only a single similarity. I am happy to conflate the two phrases used into a single point of similarity and, like you, I don't see how the court decided that she initiated sex with Evans unless they are referring to her requesting oral sex, which raises the question of whether they have given this one item more weight than they should given their other comment which also appears to relate to her alleged request for oral sex. However, the judgement only contains a summary of the evidence, not all of it. I really don't know whether or not they got it right. As I have not heard all the evidence and arguments or had a chance to see how the witnesses behave under questioning I clearly don't have as much information as the judges did. They are much better placed to decide than me but that does not mean they got it right. The Court of Appeal does make mistakes. Even if there is no clear mistake, it is entirely possible that a different set of judges faced with the same evidence would have come to a different decision. The judges comment about considerable hesitation suggests that they thought this was very finely balanced and the decision could have gone either way, hence my suspicion that it is the presumption of innocence that pushed it over the line.

calm down ladies and let clever lawyers worry about these things

Do you want me to list again the things I think are legitimate concerns? I am not saying that at all. If that is how you think my posts come across I can only apologise. You have every right to worry about things. I may try to explain why I don't share some of your concerns but that does not mean I don't think you have any right to worry or that you should leave it all to lawyers (God forbid!).

can't explain why this evidence is so singular

The judges did not describe the evidence as singular. They described the case as rare, not the new evidence.

Singular enough to overturn a jury verdict which had already had an appeal rejected

It does not need to be singular.

When assessing new evidence the process is the same regardless of the number of appeals. And the defendant is still entitled to the presumption of innocence regardless of the fact that they have been convicted and previous appeals have been rejected. Firstly, the court considers if the new evidence is admissible and was not available to the defence at the time of the original trial. On this question the court will tend to favour the defence on admissibility due to the presumption of innocence, although they have sometimes been known to come up with fairly bizarre arguments that evidence was available at the original trial when, on any reasonable construction of the facts, it clearly was not. Secondly, if they decide the new evidence is admissible, they consider whether it is enough to mean the jury's verdict is unsafe. If the prosecution is not going to push for a fresh trial the judges often tie themselves in knots to justify upholding the original verdict in the face of new evidence that most people would say undermines the verdict. However, where, as here, the prosecution has indicated it wants a fresh trial if the appeal is upheld, it gives the judges the option of simply throwing the whole thing back to a jury for them to decide rather than having to decide themselves. The mechanism for doing that is to quash the original verdict. So, in this case, my reading of the judgement is that the Court of Appeal decided that the evidence was admissible but only just, probably due to the presumption of innocence, then threw it back to a jury to decide whether or not the new evidence meant the conviction was unsafe.

I don't intend to contribute any more to this thread (although I am, in general, happy to respond to PMs). In parting I will say again that, whilst I don't share all of the concerns that have been expressed, I do believe that this case and the publicity surrounding it give valid cause for concern. I do share most of the concerns that have been expressed about the effect of this case on rape victims and future cases. There are many valid concerns.

We all need to be vigilant to ensure that the courts have the correct balance between protecting victims and the rights of the accused. Please campaign or do whatever you can to help. I would like to live in a world where every rape victim feels able to report the assault and every rapist ends up behind bars. It is unlikely to happen in my lifetime but that has to be the goal.

I apologise for the last paragraph being a bit preachy. I hope it isn't condescending or pompous. But, for personal reasons which I have not disclosed on this thread, I am passionate about getting justice for rape victims. I am conscious that the fact I am also passionate about the rights of the accused in all criminal cases leads me into contradictory positions. But that's enough from me.

PeppaAteMySoul · 21/10/2016 10:48

I had sex after being raped. I'm sorry that doesn't fit in with the behaviour of the perfect victim Frog would have expected from me. I wanted and needed to wash the experience of not being in control of my own body away. To me having consensual sex soon afterwards was about me taking back that control.

It it no way means what happened to me wasn't traumatic enough. By the way you can be raped without feeling traumatised. The man who raped me was someone I had previously had a relationship with. Whilst in that relationship he abused and assaulted me. I didn't feel traumatised by that behaviour until I left. Until that point it was just my normal.
I wish people who spout this rape myth nonsense could see how damaging and harmful it is.

venusinscorpio · 21/10/2016 10:50

Ok no hard feelings prh. It's been good to talk through some of these things with you. I'm sure you are passionate about criminal justice and victims' rights and I'm glad you appreciate women's concerns.

venusinscorpio · 21/10/2016 10:51

Peppa Flowers

HillaryFTW · 21/10/2016 12:18

Peppa Flowers

Thanks, prh

alreadytaken · 21/10/2016 13:04

prh I appreciate your explanation of the process - it has helped me understand why the appeal court took the attitude they did and more exactly how the prosecution failed the victim. But I'm afraid despite your comments about helping rape victims what has come across all too clearly is that you ignore anything that does not fit your view of this case. You have many times repeated as fact misconceptions, while claiming to dispel misconceptions - and indeed correcting some errors.

I'm going to repeat - the young woman was, according to the LAST person without something to defend to see her before she entered the room - unsteady on her feet, clinging to McDonald for support, glassy eyed and didnt answer a friendly question. Not the actions of someone who would enthusiastically initiate sex later. However in line with McDonald saying she was sick when he left and Evans saying the young woman was asleep when he left. Who can say exactly when she passed out except men who treated her very badly.

Other men come forward to give evidence but one only when a reward is offered and the other agrees the case was the talk of the town for months but still says he didnt know about the reward and only gives evidence useful to the defence after the reward has been offered..

There is no evidence these men were actually given any cash but that doesn't mean they didn't hope to receive some. Money is also not the only reason someone may decide to give false evidence. If there is any support for their evidence of anything except that they were previous sexual partners it has not been reported and the young woman denied some or all of their evidence. The newspapers did not report much of her evidence.

Datun · 21/10/2016 14:23

prh47bridge

I have a legal question. The names of the witnesses were in the Appeal Document. However someone questioned whether we were allowed to use them. Can you clarify whether we can ? Thanks

Seren0805 · 21/10/2016 22:43

I believe her too and feel totally sickened by him trying to reach out to teach women about consent. And by his partner offering large amounts of cash for information. All rather dubious. But I believe her and hope that she can somehow find peace and start again.

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