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Ched Evans Cleared - I Still Believe Her

560 replies

ChampagneCommunist · 14/10/2016 14:45

Just seen this in the BBC website. His poor, poor victim

OP posts:
merrymouse · 19/10/2016 10:14

There just doesn't seem to be any research to show that juries are generally influenced by the idea that "all men are rapists", in the same way that they might be influenced by the idea that "many women successfully convince the crown to prosecute a rape case out of greed, revenge or spite". Happy to hear about it if it exists.

merrymouse · 19/10/2016 10:16

or rather "many women invent stories of rapes and then successfully convince the crown to prosecute a rape case out of greed, revenge or spite"

prh47bridge · 19/10/2016 10:18

I have never at any point said that women have misunderstood what the reality of reporting rape is like.

I accept that my final paragraph in my comment at 22:52 yesterday could have been expressed much better.

In the context of this debate I would accept that scaremongering is the wrong word. I used it without thinking about it properly because it was in the comment to which I was responding. Had I considered my words more carefully I would not have used it. I understand the concerns being expressed by some women's groups about this decision representing a change in the law which will open up the possibility of more victims being questioned about their sexual history. I do not share that concern as, given the precedents quoted in the appeal court judgement, it appears that the decision does not break new ground. However, I don't think this particular provision has been used in a high profile case before so it is possible we may see more attempts to make use of it. So I am concerned that we may see a rise in such cases. It is important that the courts hold the line as to what is admissible so that we don't get a flood of victims being questioned about their sexual history. I have also seen some concerns expressed which appear to be based on a misunderstanding of the case, most commonly the belief that the victim accused Evans of rape. So I think some concerns are misplaced but I think there are valid concerns. Scaremongering, however, is the wrong word and I apologise unreservedly for using it.

There is evidence that the 6% figure is misunderstood by some people (men and women) and that this puts off some rape victims from reporting. I don't for one moment suggest that the 6% figure should not be used. It is a valid figure. But we need to be clear about what it means. And we need to be clear to rape victims that if their case gets to court there is around a 50% chance that their attacker will be convicted (I think it is actually a little better than 50% if you exclude cases thrown out by the judge but I can't immediately put my hands on the current figure). One can, of course, argue that even 50% is not good enough. I would tend to agree. I don't want to live in a world where anyone accused of rape is automatically found guilty. But I would like to see a higher success rate.

There are obvious reasons why victims withdraw from the process. There are also less obvious reasons. We should certainly figure out how to deal with the obvious reasons, although I don't have any answers. I would like to know more about the less obvious reasons. Anecdotal evidence is useful but no substitute for proper research. I am aware of some research on the subject but I am not convinced there has been enough. I would like to get to the point where every single case reported to the police gets at least as far as the CPS. That is unlikely to happen as there will always be cases where the police are unable to identify the attacker or unable to get enough evidence but I believe we should aim high. To get there we need to understand all the reasons that victims withdraw from the process. You may think we already know everything and you may be right, but I personally tend to the view that there is always more to know.

I would never, ever tell any woman that her concerns about reporting rape are unjustified. It is a horrible, degrading, dehumanising process which will force you to relive the experience again and again. And if you get to court you will have to relive it again and then you will be cross examined by someone trying to pick holes in your account. Even if you go through all that your attacker may still walk free. Personally my prime motivation is that I want to see the bastards off the streets. All of them. That won't happen if victims don't push all the way through the process. I would therefore like all victims to report the attack and stick with the process. But I fully understand any victim that doesn't want to put herself through it.

Those of us who have served on juries know they don't work like that

I know they don't. I think most of those who work in criminal law know juries don't really work like that but the legal system maintains the fiction. I am well aware that one plausible explanation of the original verdict is that it was a compromise between those members of the jury who wanted to convict both and those who wanted to acquit both. There is, of course, no evidence that is what happened but it is certainly possible.

Concerns about the neutrality of witnesses are mentioned, but again we don't really know why we shouldn't be concerned.

That is always a concern in any criminal case. You get the police officer who suppresses or invents evidence to secure a conviction. You get forensic scientists behaving similarly. Then there is the witness who wants to sell their story to the press or claim the reward put up by the prosecution or the defence. And so it goes on. Very few witnesses are really neutral. Without going into all the ins and outs, in general the courts will only exclude relevant evidence if it is unfairly prejudicial to the accused or if there is specific legislation preventing its use. Given the requirements of the ECHR around fair trials it is difficult for the courts to do anything else. It is up to the jury to listen to the arguments and decided whether witnesses are credible. Juries will, of course, get it wrong sometimes. I'm afraid that isn't very reassuring but it is how the criminal law has worked for a very long time.

no arguments have been advanced to explain why defendants wouldn't be encouraged to use this defence strategy in other cases, so no, I still don't understand why this case doesn't set a precedent

It does not set a precedent because the precedent was already set in the playground case referred to in the judgement. This case simply followed that precedent. One can argue that the precedent is wrong or even that the law is wrong but it is there and would still be there even if this case had not happened.

This is a high profile case and I'm sure some other defendants, having seen it, will try to follow. It is important that the courts hold the line as to what constitutes evidence that is relevant and capable of belief (not the same as saying it is credible - that is a decision for the jury). How judges instruct the jury about such evidence is also important. So, although I don't think this decision sets a new precedent, I do agree there is a concern.

Datun · 19/10/2016 10:34

How judges instruct the jury about such evidence is also important.

This is the bit. Presumably judges are manifestly better informed than average jury members. Is there a way, without being accused of being prejudicial, they can inform juries of, oh I don't know, rape stats, the reasons why rape myths still flourish, etc. (Probably not, but just thinking out loud here).

merrymouse · 19/10/2016 10:38

It does not set a precedent because the precedent was already set in the playground case referred to in the judgement. This case simply followed that precedent.

Precedent in terms of the bar necessary for relevance and similarity. The playground case was different, and I don't know enough about it to comment on the relevance, but the standard of similarly certainly seemed to be a lot higher.

WomanWithAltitude · 19/10/2016 10:41

Judges are already advised to cover rape myths (to a certain extent) in their summing up if this is relevant.

Datun · 19/10/2016 10:41

vorpal

The 'I Believed Her', started as a supportive sound-bite. Most people do know she hasn't made any accusations as it is one of the central issues and it was pointed out constantly. However '#I know she hasn't said anything, but we support her' didn't have the same ring. A couple of others were tried, but it went back to I Believe, almost as shorthand. Probably not helpful in the purest sense, but it's worked. I can see it becoming widely used as a supportive hashtag in general.

merrymouse · 19/10/2016 21:41

More comment from barristers here:

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/18/criminal-barristers-over-reaction-ched-evans-counterproductive-victims-sex-assault

“Cases like Evans’s will remain wholly exceptional. There is no relaxation of the rule against this type of questioning.”

Great.

Now please explain why.

venusinscorpio · 19/10/2016 22:16

Indeed. As I said earlier, the Secret Barrister thinks we should all be comforted by the fact that Evans' defence didn't try to introduce Tristin (no one would be having casual sex two weeks after a rape) Owens' evidence earlier, as they knew it was the sort of appeal to rape myths section 41 was designed to prevent. Luckily, they managed to get that point in eventually by the back door though, so that's ok.

Marbleheadjohnson · 19/10/2016 23:07

£xceptional

HillaryFTW · 19/10/2016 23:17

Actually, vorpal, there are many scumbag lowlifes on twitter etc who don't believe that the victim has no memory of events, that she's in it for the money or whatever. When I use "I believe her", I mean that I believe her account of the night, as well as the general solidarity with rape victims

I also don't believe him, which has come up as a hashtag too, so you can consider the two equivalent in this case

HillaryFTW · 19/10/2016 23:18

Why does the legal system maintain the fiction, prh?

prh47bridge · 20/10/2016 01:33

Now please explain why

The Court of Appeal based its judgement on the guidelines set down in the decision of the House of Lords in R v A (No. 2). The Court of Appeal cannot change those guidelines. Only the Supreme Court can do so. The Court of Appeal did not decide any new point of law apart from disposing of a somewhat convoluted argument put forward by the prosecution (para 49). Their interpretation of the R v A (No. 2) guidelines was informed by the R v T (Abdul) decision (the playground case). Again, they did not extend that decision or put in place any fresh principles. The R v A (No. 2) guidance remains intact. That is still the standard to be used. You may disagree with the court as to whether or not the evidence in this case reached the required standard but the standard has not changed. Future defendants cannot say, "this was allowed in the Evans case so it must be allowed here" unless the facts of the case are identical. The Court's comments that it arrived at its conclusion with considerable hesitation and its statement that this is a rare case, with the clear inference that a different case would have resulted in a different decision, prevent any attempt to rely on this decision in cases where the facts are not identical.

Why does the legal system maintain the fiction, prh

Interesting question. You would probably get different answers from different people. My guess is that it is because our entire criminal justice system is built on trial by jury with a presumption of innocence. The rules of the system are constructed accordingly, holding a decision by a jury in high regard and setting a very high bar to overturn a jury's verdict. So, for example, it is not possible to appeal on the basis that the verdict was wrong, no matter how irrational the jury's decision. Even if you have new evidence the Court of Appeal has a strong bias towards upholding the jury's decision. So the entire system is built on the assumption that juries arrive at rational verdicts. The system is therefore very resistant to the idea that they don't. I suspect that many of those involved think that the criminal justice system would lose public confidence and descend into chaos if it acknowledged that juries are flawed.

Having said that, there has been some research into how juries behave and there have been some attempts to use that information to help improve the quality of decision making by juries. So there are attempts to make things better but staying within the framework of the current system.

merrymouse · 20/10/2016 05:43

Thank you prh. However, I still don't understand why this case would not inform other cases. The facts in this case and the playground case and the reasons for using this kind of evidence were not the same.

Again, which are the characteristics that make this a rare case? The logic behind using the witness statements to show that consent was given would seem to apply to many cases.

merrymouse · 20/10/2016 05:46

What I am asking is for somebody to say. "The unique characteristic of this case was 'x'. It would be very, very unusual for this to apply in other cases because 'y'"

WomanWithAltitude · 20/10/2016 07:12

Any rapist could say "she consented, and she did " and then find someone who will testify that she had done that thing before.

Rapists already do the first bit ("she consented"), now they know that adding the second bit will help their case and allow them to use sexual history.

venusinscorpio · 20/10/2016 09:40

As Vera Baird points pointed out in her Guardian article on Monday. Have you read it prh?

prh47bridge · 20/10/2016 10:50

Any rapist could say "she consented, and she did " and then find someone who will testify that she had done that thing before

And would get absolutely nowhere with that. The "someone" would not be allowed to give evidence. The Court of Appeal judgement is clear that a single similarity is not enough where the alleged similarity is something common. The judgement sticks to the line laid down by the House of Lords that the similarity must go beyond what could reasonably be explained as a coincidence. In this case the Court of Appeal appears to have identified at least five points of similarity between the description given by the new witnesses and that given by Evans. If sticking to common things, a rapist has to come up with at least 5 or 6 things about the victim's behaviour whilst having consensual sex and hope that someone can be found who has had consensual sex with the victim who can confirm that she behaves in all of those ways.

I still don't understand why this case would not inform other cases

Because the Court of Appeal's judgement contains a huge red flag telling judges that it must not inform their judgements. It describes this as a "rare case". That tells judges that they can use any decisions on points of law (i.e. para 49 which is pretty trivial), they can use any guidance given about the way to approach the decision (as far as I can see there is none apart from repeating the guidance in R v A (No. 2) and R v T (Abdul)) but that is all. The decision itself must be regarded as applying specifically to this particular set of facts, not as any form of guidance to be used where the facts are different. There is indeed a further red flag in that the Court also says it arrived at its decision with considerable hesitation - another indicator that the decision applies only to this particular set of facts.

I could cite a few unique (or, at least, very unusual) characteristics of this case but, in legal terms, it doesn't really matter. Because the Court of Appeal has put these red flags in its judgement it cannot be used to inform other cases unless the facts are identical.

merrymouse · 20/10/2016 11:07

In this case the Court of Appeal appears to have identified at least five points of similarity

So there are more points of similarity that aren't in the judgement? I can identify two - using the word 'harder' and position. The two given seem to be pretty common things - wouldn't it be more helpful if the less common examples were given in the judgement?

Your argument still seems to be that there is more to it than is made clear in the judgement, But that isn't very helpful.

If a 'red flag' is that 'this is a rare case', why is it a rare case?

Because the Court of Appeal has put these red flags in its judgement it cannot be used to inform other cases unless the facts are identical.

But presumably the same logic could be used again.

Would they leave the most relevant facts out of the judgement to protect the victim? Confused

prh47bridge · 20/10/2016 11:10

Have you read it prh

Yes I have. I note that she does not actually say that the Court of Appeal has lowered the bar. Her language is quite careful. She is, after all, a lawyer! Her final paragraph asks if this case is a rarity (as the Court of Appeal specifically state) or if the Court has unintentionally lent itself to a potential return to the bad old days. She worries that it may have done so but does not unequivocally say that it has. Her conclusion is that we must be vigilant. I would agree with that. Judges need to pay attention to the red flags in this judgement and ensure it is not misused. We all need to be vigilant to ensure that this judgement is not misused.

I cannot rule out a judge getting it wrong. Judges do make mistakes so that is a valid concern. However, if judges apply the rules of precedent correctly this case will not have changed anything.

venusinscorpio · 20/10/2016 11:12

What are the 5 points of similarity?

merrymouse · 20/10/2016 11:15

Without knowing any better, it seems to me that the definition of a rare case would be subjective if it is not explained why it is rare.

venusinscorpio · 20/10/2016 11:19

Why did the justification and debate as given in the appeal court judgement focus primarily on the words "fuck me harder" and "go harder" as to why it was too similar to be a coincidence?

You're not convincing. None of this legal pontification about what women should be concerned about is. Vera Baird expressed her concern in a measured, lawyerly way yes. But she did express concern. You don't appear to think there's any cause for concern. She disagrees. She's a lawyer, you're a lawyer. Who should I give more weight to?

merrymouse · 20/10/2016 11:47

And again, in a high profile rape case it's not just what lawyers understand that matters, it's what the general public understands. It should be possible to explain what makes this case different.

We know that the nature of a rape is that it will usually be one person's word against another. We know that even if the jury and everyone else involved thinks that it is more than likely that a rape took place, that does not clear the bar of 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

In a way the surprising thing seems to be not that this defence was used, but that it hadn't been used before.

I suspect the reason is that most rape cases that go to court have an unusually high amount of evidence to confirm that a rape took place - and even then there is only a 50% rate of conviction. It's not so much that this case is unusual, but that cases like this usually become cases that don't go to court, because the victim decides not to go through the ordeal of a court case.

It did seem after the initial case that a greater burden had been placed on men to seek active consent. Maybe that was false.

I suspect the change in the law didn't so much help women in cases like this as prevent lawyers from making totally shameless attacks on the victim's character when they had no other argument. Woohoo.

I really don't think Vera Baird, feminists and Women's charities are capable of discouraging women from going to court - how much more discouragement would be possible?

prh47bridge · 20/10/2016 11:55

So there are more points of similarity that aren't in the judgement

There may be but the judgement itself lists:

  • the victim instigating sexual activity
  • the victim directing her partners to particular sexual positions (note the plural. This implies that there were at least two positions that were common across the accounts of Evans and the new witnesses, not just the use of doggy position mentioned in the judgement, so that is probably two points of similarity)
  • the victim directing her partners to have sex with her in certain ways (I think this is referring to her requesting oral sex)
  • the victim using the words "fuck me harder"
  • the victim using the words "go harder"

Although not mentioned directly in this context, you could add to that list the victim's loss of memory after each encounter. All of that is in the judgement.

The judgement is clear that none of these on its own is persuasive but put together the Court believes these similarities take us beyond coincidence. One can, of course, argue about whether or not they were right. I note, however, that this case was only before the Court of Appeal because the CCRC thought the new evidence met the required threshold.

Why did the justification and debate as given in the appeal court judgement focus primarily on the words "fuck me harder" and "go harder" as to why it was too similar to be a coincidence

It did not. Indeed, it specifically stated that, on their own, these would not be enough. See above for the list of similarities.

why is it a rare case

As I say, in legal terms it really doesn't matter. The red flags mean that judges should ignore this case. They will not ask why it was rare. That isn't how precedent works. However, the most obvious way in which this case is rare is that victim has never alleged that she was raped. It is highly unusual for a case to get to court with a victim who does not say she was raped.

But presumably the same logic could be used again

Given the red flags in the judgement the specific logic should only be used where the facts are identical. Where they are not a judge should only look to this decision for the approach to be used, not for the specific logic. This decision is clear that the approach to be used is that laid out in the earlier precedents.

None of this legal pontification about what women should be concerned about is.

I have repeatedly stated that there are valid concerns. All I have said as that, as long as the courts follow the existing rules of precedent correctly, this case won't have changed anything in terms of the conduct of trials. But it is perfectly valid to be concerned that defences will try to misuse this case or will be triggered by the publicity to try arguments that they would not otherwise have attempted. It is perfectly valid to be concerned that defences will see this as reason to investigate the sexual history of victims more aggressively in the hope of turning up something they might use in court. It is perfectly valid to be concerned that some judges will allow evidence which they should exclude.

I do not think this case sets a new precedent but that is not the same as saying there is no reason to be concerned.

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