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Ched Evans Cleared - I Still Believe Her

560 replies

ChampagneCommunist · 14/10/2016 14:45

Just seen this in the BBC website. His poor, poor victim

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 18/10/2016 23:47

Hearing a man, particularly one who sets himself up as an expert, sanctimoniously pontificate about he'd really like to understand why women drop out of the process makes me want to punch him in the face

I am sorry you think that wanting to be sure about the reasons women drop out of the process is sanctimoniously pontificating. There are some factors which are obvious and need to be dealt with, although I don't claim to have solutions. But I do not think it is in any way "sanctimonious pontificating" to say that there may be other reasons and that we need to understand those in order to deal with every aspect of the problem, not just the obvious ones.

WomanWithAltitude · 18/10/2016 23:50

I don't think that wanting to be sure is sanctimonious pontificating. (Although I think the amount of information out there would render it relatively easy for the curious person to find out. It has been researched after all.)

I think the sum total of your contribution to this debate is sanctimonious pontificating.

WomanWithAltitude · 18/10/2016 23:54

Venusinscorpio summed it up very well in her post just above. The faux concern that women have misunderstood what the reality of reporting rape is like, and that feminists are scaremongering etc., is patronising and insult our intelligence.

Feminists don't have to invent the stories that scare women off reporting rape - they're real. And there are real women behind them, real.human beings who you seem to be incapable of identifying with.

prh47bridge · 19/10/2016 00:33

Feminists don't have to invent the stories that scare women off reporting rape - they're real. And there are real women behind them, real.human beings who you seem to be incapable of identifying with.

You are making all sorts of assumptions about me. You have no idea.

Datun · 19/10/2016 00:33

prh47bridge

I'm sorry for your wife, truly.

As well as the thread a previous poster has mentioned, there is one asking whether ANY woman has not been the victim of assault/harassment/rape. Nearly 1000 posts.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2756721-to-think-most-women-have-been-victims-of-sexual-assault-has-anyone-not?msgid=64310100

That's two threads started on mumsnet which will explicitly answer your question.

venusinscorpio · 19/10/2016 00:38

Me too, phr. But you personally are not better placed to decide what's best for rape victims than the women on this thread. There are numerous rape victims on this thread, and its very patronising to disregard their views.

Datun · 19/10/2016 00:44

Read those threads prh47bridge. Read them all.

Datun · 19/10/2016 01:11

Can anyone tell me whether, or if, the people who work in the rape crisis centres get involved at the 'reporting to the police' stage. And how the relationship between those people and the police works. Are they valued? Do they have influence? Etc.

merrymouse · 19/10/2016 07:15

The Secret Barrister has written an article based on their blog for the New Statesman,

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2016/10/why-ched-evans-verdict-does-not-set-dangerous-precedent

However, although it is repeated that this case is unusual, again, it is not explained why.

"In accepting the defence argument “with a considerable degree of hesitation”, the Court of Appeal emphasised that this was an unusual case, and that it would be rare for it to be “appropriate to indulge in this kind of forensic examination of sexual behavior with others”. This explodes the “dangerous precedent” narrative. Prosecution advocates in Crown Courts across the land will draw judges’ attentions to these remarks should defence advocates try to rely upon Evans as establishing any new point of principle. Section 41 will continue to be applied strictly"

It would be really helpful if the unusual elements of this case that make section 41 so applicable could be pointed out. The victim had no memory of events, but the nature of rape is that it involves an act that may be consensual, (may have been consensual with the defendant in the past), and there will usually be no neutral third party witnesses. I can't see where any concerns about precedent are 'exploded'. "Oh but that was very unusual" is not, in itself, a winning argument.

The SB seems to understand the concern that on the face of it the new evidence doesn't meet "the high hurdle of relevance and similarity",

"To borrow from a legal colleague’s tweet, the sexual position adopted and words used are almost a modern “porn trope”, and are far more common nowadays perhaps than in the youth of the Court of Appeal judiciary. Beyond coincidence, or verging on the threshold? I don’t think it’s easy to assert either way. However, even if the Court of Appeal’s finely-balanced judgment was wrong in this case – and it is always a difficult exercise balancing the rights of complainants against the rights of the accused – it is, in my view, a leap to suggest that this has established a precedent, or loosened the strictures of section 41.but then says "

Why is it a difficult leap?

Concerns about the neutrality of witnesses are mentioned, but again we don't really know why we shouldn't be concerned.

"The £50,000 “reward” put up by Evans for fresh evidence is troubling. Questions to be asked, certainly, but questions that were asked, in the Court of Appeal and before the jury. All the “what-ifs” advanced by commentators who were not in court for the full trial were almost certainly litigated in front of the jury. They were certainly not litigated in front of Twitter."

I don't understand how this judgement wouldn't be referred to by future court of appeal judges when making a decision - they referred to the playground case. Again, maybe their reasoning isn't clear in the judgement, but would all parties have read all the transcripts of the playground case, or just the judgement summary? Even if the judges opinion on 'relevance and similarity' was a subjective judgement, once they have made it, doesn't that set a precedent for other cases?

I'm not trying to litigate this case on Twitter. I am trying to understand where rape victims stand. This case has highlighted plenty of reasons not to go through with a court case, but no arguments have been advanced to explain why defendants wouldn't be encouraged to use this defence strategy in other cases, so no, I still don't understand why this case doesn't set a precedent.

merrymouse · 19/10/2016 07:24

"loosened the strictures of section 41. -but then says "

venusinscorpio · 19/10/2016 07:26

Totally agree Merry. Great post.

merrymouse · 19/10/2016 08:01

To summarise my rather long post, you can't argue that something is the exception that proves the rule, if you don't explain why it is exceptional.

venusinscorpio · 19/10/2016 08:09

What I find so irritating/concerning about the dismissal by the Secret Barrister and other legal commentators of feminist concerns is that they fail to acknowledge that any sexual history evidence at all prejudices a jury. Allowing it in by the back door works just as well as a tactic to discredit the victim as overtly allowing it would. So the Secret Barrister thinks we should take comfort in the fact that the rape myth induced first statements of the two new sexual history witnesses in the Evans case were "wisely not relied upon by the defence, as it would have been exactly the type of nudge and wink to inadmissible, myth-reinforcing irrelevance that section 41 was designed to prevent".

Well no, I'm not comforted by that, given that they managed to get that exact same information admitted due to the appeal.

HillaryFTW · 19/10/2016 08:10

Well said, merry

venusinscorpio · 19/10/2016 08:11

Secret Barrister admits on Twitter that he/she has no real clue how many s41 applications have been made or accepted since it came into law.

venusinscorpio · 19/10/2016 08:12

But we should all STFU about it anyway.

WomanWithAltitude · 19/10/2016 08:14

Can anyone tell me whether, or if, the people who work in the rape crisis centres get involved at the 'reporting to the police' stage. And how the relationship between those people and the police works. Are they valued? Do they have influence?

The role of the ISVA (who are usually employees of women's charities) is partly to act as an advocate/adviser for complainants who are going through the legal process, amd liaise wit the police I don't know whether the police value them, but I know complainants do.

WomanWithAltitude · 19/10/2016 08:16

Secret Barrister admits on Twitter that he/she has no real clue how many s41 applications have been made or accepted since it came into law.

Research has shown it isn't rare.

WomanWithAltitude · 19/10/2016 08:18

What I find so irritating/concerning about the dismissal by the Secret Barrister and other legal commentators of feminist concerns is that they fail to acknowledge that any sexual history evidence at all prejudices a jury.

Yes, spot on.

HillaryFTW · 19/10/2016 08:18

I think some barristers have an idealised view of juries, if they think juries will put the same careful legalistic weight on every piece of testimony or evidence that they would.

Those of us who have served on juries know they don't work like that.

venusinscorpio · 19/10/2016 08:18

Do you have recent figures? Nobody seems to have any clue in that conversation.

venusinscorpio · 19/10/2016 08:19

It would be nice to educate them Smile

WomanWithAltitude · 19/10/2016 08:20

No - it needs some up to date research.

Anecdotally, it's still used pretty frequently.

vorpal · 19/10/2016 09:36

"I think some barristers have an idealised view of juries, if they think juries will put the same careful legalistic weight on every piece of testimony or evidence that they would.

Those of us who have served on juries know they don't work like that." -

Hillary FTW

  • well exactly, I have heard this from many people I have spoken to who have served as jurists...I have not.

This is why coupled with reading the reports on the evidence, many people were open-minded enough to accept that the first trial may have been a mistrial.

I have a question;

When people state "I believe her", what do they mean, what do they believe? .... the victim hasn't said ANYTHING about being raped.

It appears therefore that people who blindly say, "I believe her" have read nothing to very little about this case.

What do you believe that she said?

merrymouse · 19/10/2016 10:00

"This is why coupled with reading the reports on the evidence, many people were open-minded enough to accept that the first trial may have been a mistrial."

The first trial has not been judged to be a mistrial.

The point is not that it is possible to prove that anything illegal happened at either trial. The point is that without knowing the basis for the various judgements about the reliability and relevance of the new witnesses, it is not possible to know why they couldn't be used again. You may think that is a good thing - reassurance for anybody accused of rape. Many people appear to be very worried about the plight of men accused of rape.

However, the issue we are discussing here is the reason why past sexual history is usually not allowed to be used as evidence, (partly that juries can draw irrelevant conclusions - the rape myths), and why this case might prevent rape victims from coming forward.

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