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Ched Evans Cleared - I Still Believe Her

560 replies

ChampagneCommunist · 14/10/2016 14:45

Just seen this in the BBC website. His poor, poor victim

OP posts:
Marbleheadjohnson · 20/10/2016 12:05

prh, do you think the concern that these "cumulatively remarkable similarities" only coming up very late in the day and after all other avenues of defence had been exhausted, and after the information that needed corroborating was already in the public domain, is a valid one?

merrymouse · 20/10/2016 12:07

- the victim instigating sexual activity
- the victim directing her partners to particular sexual positions (note the plural. This implies that there were at least two positions that were common across the accounts of Evans and the new witnesses, not just the use of doggy position mentioned in the judgement, so that is probably two points of similarity)
- the victim directing her partners to have sex with her in certain ways (I think this is referring to her requesting oral sex)

I don't think I'm paricularly out there in terms of sexual experience, but how is telling somebody what you would like uncommon?

There has to be more to it.

birdsdestiny · 20/10/2016 12:20

Surely that can not be it? Those similarities are common everyday sexual experiences. Prh that doesn't reassure me it in fact it makes me utterly depressed. Honestly I am hoping that you have got that wrong, I don't want to doubt your expertise but was that it?

venusinscorpio · 20/10/2016 12:25

Why are "Fuck me harder" and "go harder" two different points of similarity in your list, prh? They are almost exactly the same phrase. As for the rest of your lengthy post, very lawyerly. But as I've said, this line of argument is not compelling me to believe differently.

I'm glad you feel my concerns, and those of Vera Baird, are valid. You're just nitpicking about the word "precedent", essentially. It is not just a specific legal term, it has a clearly understood meaning. It means to me that I fear that the high profile nature of this case will mean that people will believe that they can get round section 41 just by finding a few similarities with other consensual sex partners the victim might have had. I disagree that the "points of similarity" are at all uncommon, even cumulatively.

HillaryFTW · 20/10/2016 13:30

"I disagree that the "points of similarity" are at all uncommon, even cumulatively."

Me too.

And, whatever else there is to say about this case, the woman in it was not the instigator (she didn't book the room, invite the extra person, go into a room uninvited, ask the new person in the room to join in).

HillaryFTW · 20/10/2016 13:31

Whereas in the other case(s), IIRC, she did ask to go home with the man she subsequently had sex with (though not on every occasion they went home!)

HillaryFTW · 20/10/2016 13:32

(going home with someone is not instigation of sexual activity, of course)

venusinscorpio · 20/10/2016 13:38

Also, Ched himself testified that when he first came into the room uninvited he asked McDonald if he could join in. So for the purposes of these "points of similarity" the victim did not instigate the sexual activity with CE.

venusinscorpio · 20/10/2016 13:39

Sorry Hilary you made the same point!

venusinscorpio · 20/10/2016 13:40

So no, I only see 3 discrete points of similarity prh.

venusinscorpio · 20/10/2016 13:41

Should have used quote marks around "points of similarity" to indicate my disdain. You'll have to imagine them there!

HillaryFTW · 20/10/2016 13:43

QuotemarksOfDisdain.

venusinscorpio · 20/10/2016 13:44
Grin
weveallkissedafrogor2 · 20/10/2016 13:46

Uh oh.....maybe I don't know enough about it (from listening to people talking about the case) wasn't she sexually active with someone else not long after? that doesn't scream ' upset and traumatized' does it really??
im sorry but currently im on the fence!!

prh47bridge · 20/10/2016 13:47

prh, do you think the concern that these "cumulatively remarkable similarities" only coming up very late in the day and after all other avenues of defence had been exhausted, and after the information that needed corroborating was already in the public domain, is a valid one?

Yes.

The jury heard the new witnesses and heard everything the prosecution could throw at them to cast doubt on their testimony. They decided that the evidence from these witnesses was sufficiently credible to cast reasonable doubt on Evans' guilt (which is not the same as saying they believed the new witnesses were telling the truth). As I did not hear all the evidence my instinct is to accept the jury's view. However, I accept that the jury may have got it wrong and it is a valid concern.

I don't want to doubt your expertise but was that it?

Not a question of expertise at all. That is all I can see mentioned in the judgement. I do not consider myself remotely qualified to judge whether they are enough cumulatively to justify the Court's decision and I certainly don't know if there were any other points of similarity that aren't mentioned in the judgement. All I can say is that, in my limited experience, none of my (few) sexual partners would match more than 2 or 3 of the items on this list. However, I am not drawing any conclusions from that. My sexual partners are a vanishingly small sample of the female population. It may say more about my experience of sex than it does about the world generally. How many people would match all of them? I simply don't know. Would I have arrived at the same judgement as the Court of Appeal if I had heard all the evidence and arguments they heard? No idea.

It is, perhaps, worth noting that, based on the House of Lords judgement, the Courts are not looking for something that is unique, i.e. that the behaviour is something only exhibited by the victim. The question is rather, if you stated these things about a random woman with whom you had never had consensual sex, how likely is it that they would all be correct - not individual items but the whole set? The courts have not set a specific standard for that. Is it enough if the behaviour in total is something that is shared by 40% of women? 20%? 1%? Less? There is no clear yardstick (not that we could be sure of whether that measure had been met).

It is also worth pointing out, from the House of Lords judgement, "the test of admissibility is whether the evidence (and questioning related to it) is nevertheless so relevant to the issue of consent that to exclude it would endanger the fairness of the trial under Article 6 of the [ECHR]". That is about protecting the right of the defendant to a fair trial, which strongly suggests a lower bar than would be the case if we were not protecting that right. Our whole criminal justice system is built on a presumption of innocence, so the courts are very hesitant about excluding evidence that could be relevant to the defence.

but how is telling somebody what you would like uncommon

On its own that would not have been enough. In the Court of Appeal's view it becomes enough when combined with the specifics of what was requested plus the other factors.

It is not just a specific legal term, it has a clearly understood meaning

If I recollect correctly this particular discussion started with someone asking me why I believe this case does not set a new legal precedent, so that's what I have been trying to explain. I agree that some people will believe that they can get around section 41 if they can find a few similarities with consensual sex partners the victim might have had. I believe the courts should hold the line so that they find it is no easier than it was previously but it certainly won't stop some from trying.

Marbleheadjohnson · 20/10/2016 13:49

Thanks for answering my question, prh Smile

HillaryFTW · 20/10/2016 13:50

Frog

There has been many discussions on here about women who did have sexual activity shortly after being raped, whether with a partner, friend or stranger, as a way to reclaim their own bodily autonomy.

It's not something you shoudl use in your judgement.

prh47bridge · 20/10/2016 13:51

Ched himself testified that when he first came into the room uninvited he asked McDonald if he could join in

This keeps cropping up. It is a myth. He never said that. It was not in his original statement to the police, nor was it in the evidence he gave at either trial. His evidence has not changed. He has always said that when he entered the room McDonald asked the victim if he could join in. McDonald's evidence differs in that he says Evans himself asked the victim if he could join in. Both agree that she said yes and that she then specifically asked Evans to give her oral sex.

venusinscorpio · 20/10/2016 13:51

In the nicest possible way, that's a rape myth, and quite ignorant. It's very common for rape victims to have sex soon afterwards for a huge variety of psychological reasons. It was also something I did for my own fucked up reasons, and I'm afraid I'm not going to be massively polite to you if you say or imply I wasn't sufficiently traumatised.

prh47bridge · 20/10/2016 13:55

It's not something you shoudl use in your judgement

Agreed. There is, in any case, a dispute about the date. The victim says it happened before her encounter with Evans. Also, as the victim in this case was told by the authorities that she had been raped rather than alleging it herself, I would regard her experience as atypical so definitely would not read anything into her behaviour following the incident.

venusinscorpio · 20/10/2016 13:55

Ok, I'm mixing up CE and CM. Doesn't have any bearing on whether the victim instigated it though does it? Ched Evans turned up knowing full well they were having sex and she was likely to be naked, and CM instigated that he join in. Or we believe McDonald's testimony that Ched was the one who asked, which is what I thought was the case. In either case, the men instigated it. Not the victim.

prh47bridge · 20/10/2016 13:56

Cross posted with venusinscorpio. Agree with you on that point completely.

HillaryFTW · 20/10/2016 14:03

PRH

To me the points of dissimilarity are so glaring (the other incidences didn't involve two men, the other instances didn't happen in a pre booked hotel room, the other instances didn't involve one man inviting another to come to the room without her consent etc) that the commonalities are dwarfed, especially as they are so commonplace.

weveallkissedafrogor2 · 20/10/2016 14:05

This reply has been deleted

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prh47bridge · 20/10/2016 14:09

I was agreeing with your 13:51 post!

I think you can argue both ways about who instigated. Yes, according to their testimony it was one of the men who asked if Evans could join in. The first actual sexual activity, according to their statements, is Evans giving her oral sex following her request. After this, according to Evans, she dictated what happened. If you wind back a bit earlier to before Evans' arrival, McDonald said that she instigated sex with him. So I can see your point but I think I also understand where the Court of Appeal is coming from.

I must apologise, by the way. For a whole pile of reasons I have a tendency to play devil's advocate. It is a very useful skill in my line of work. So when I offer an alternative point of view I am not necessarily saying it is my view, just that it is an alternative. People who know me understand that but I suspect that some people on here find it annoying. If I am annoying you I apologise profusely. And yes, the previous paragraph contains a large element of devil's advocacy.

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