Ched Evans Cleared - I Still Believe Her

[ChampagneCommunist]

Just seen this in the BBC website. His poor, poor victim

At this point, assuming such an argument exists, it would be really helpful if somebody could make it

The biggest problems with rape is people not reporting or reporting and then withdrawing before trial. Inevitably some prosecutions will fail and the guilty will sometimes go free. And sometimes the rapist will get convicted of a lesser crime associated with the rape such as sexual assault, rather than the rape itself. However, if you report the rape and the CPS prosecute there is as good a chance of conviction as for most other major crimes. And if you don't report the bastard will get away with it.

The victim and other witnesses and cctv described pretty extreme intoxication.

Depends on your definition. She was still able to converse cogently and make decisions. She was able to walk unaided on what were described as very high heels. She said, "I felt tipsy but not out of control". On the other hand she fell over in a takeaway, was seen to be unsteady on her feet at some points of the evening (although she appeared to have recovered her balance by the time she got to the hotel), had slurred speech and lost her memory.

As she had memory loss, she hasn't claimed anything

A point that seems somewhat lost on some people! However, as above, she said she felt tipsy but not out of control. She can remember what she drank - her memory loss started later. She said that she did not consider the amount of alcohol she had drunk to be excessive. She indicated that she regularly drinks that much or more without losing control. She does not think her memory loss was due to excessive alcohol consumption. She apparently still believes her drink may have been spiked by person or persons unknown although there is no evidence to support this.

I would also question the true freedom and capacity of any teenager...

The evidence of McDonald and Evans is that she didn't just say yes. She then asked Evans to give her oral sex. If true that suggests she had freedom and capacity, and was not simply saying "yes" out of fear.

And for the legal pundits to drop the arrogance and accusations towards women's groups of scaremongering and being more of a problem for women than rape myths and the flawed legal system

I'm afraid some, but by no means all, women's groups are guilty of scaremongering. And there is significant evidence to support the theory that many women think the 6% conviction rate refers to cases that get to court and are put off reporting rape by this. We desperately need to find out more about why women withdraw their complaints before they get to court as that is by far the most common cause of reported rapes not resulting in a conviction. We need to find out why women are withdrawing their complaints and fix that. As things stand, you could change the legal system so that anyone accused of rape was automatically convicted without trial and the conviction rate would still be very low.

I am sorry if you find my concern paternalistic or patronising. I can assure you it isn't. Ask my wife. She is a rape victim.

P.S. On my first point above, I'm sorry that isn't very good. If I had more time I could improve it but I need to get on with some other stuff this evening.

It would be great if you can come and debate this on my sexual history thread in feminist chat at some point, phr. No rush at all, it's not exclusively about the Evans case and I'd like to debate the issues rationally with different perspectives included. Legal, ethical and feminist ones.

"her memory loss started later."

Sure, but so? It runs from a vague memory only of the kebab shop to the next morning. Nothing about the taxi, loss of handbag, trip to the hotel etc.

And she wet the bed, as well as the glazed look etc.

is sexual assault really used as a lesser charge? Given both hinge on consent?

Unlike, say, the difference between murder and manslaughter, or reckless driving and driving without due care and attention.

Venus, I'll repost the above on your legal thread

Legal thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2759003-Sexual-history-in-rape-cases-its-uses-and-restrictions-as-described-in-UK-Law-Student-Review-paper?watched=1&msgid=64326172#64326172

We desperately need to find out more about why women withdraw their complaints before they get to court

Is this a serious remark ?

Wow. If that's serious it displays stunning ignorance of how hard the process is for women, and ignorance of how many women are threatened and intimidated when they report rape.

pr I have seen many of your posts around this subject and never felt the need to challenge your non judgmental stance (even if my fingers have been itching like fuck to do so...)

but really ?

I think you are losing it, dude. It seems you really cannot multi task and manage not to make a complete fucking arse of yourself

I agree that remark took my breath away. I would never report a rape and am very clear in my understanding of why this is the case.

Thanks Hilary, I know it's a bit reading heavy at the moment! I will make more comments as I work through the Home Office report posted by another poster and I hope people aren't put off by the texts and feel they can join in! Reading them is not compulsory to post on the thread.

It's a good central resource with a link to the relevant legislation and related stuff if nothing else.

'We desperately need to find out more about why women withdraw their complaints before they get to court'

PRH - I'm not a lawyer but I deal with people on civil matters before litigation - RTAs etc. I can't get many people to agree to attend court to give evidence to resolve things like liability disputes. The process of going to court on a civil matter is hard enough to sell to someone who has a vested financial interest in helping on the cases I deal with. It's really not that difficult to realise how much harder it would be on a rape victim to contemplate going through with a trial to gain a conviction? This case alone has writ large exactly why so many women would walk away from going through the sort of hell X in this case has gone through.

You clearly have a pretty good knowledge of the legal process & what rape victims have to endure to stand a chance of seeing their attacker convicted - what would you suggest could be done to ease that process for victims while ensuring justice is served?

is sexual assault really used as a lesser charge? Given both hinge on consent?

It is, yes. The most serious sexual assault charges can seem virtually indistinguishable from rape. Juries are sometimes given both alternatives and opt for sexual assault.

Wow. If that's serious it displays stunning ignorance of how hard the process is for women, and ignorance of how many women are threatened and intimidated when they report rape.

I am aware of all of that but I am not a fan of making assumptions. We certainly should be trying to make the process easier for women. We certainly should be doing more to protect women from threats and intimidation. But I stand by my view that we need to find out more rather than assuming that these are the only reasons women withdraw their complaints.

I don't think it is a misunderstanding that puts women off reporting rape. I don't like the implied idea that women shouldn't be given all the facts and concerns and can read around the issue and allowed to make their minds up themselves. That's why I called it patronising and paternalistic.

It's the same with the 6% rape convictions as a proportion of reported rapes figure. Like it or not that is a highly relevant statistic for a woman considering whether to report a rape.

Prh, there is a whole thread full of "why I didn't reports" that might help you. Quite a few people on there who did report, but have no better outcomes.

I don't think it is a misunderstanding that puts women off reporting rape. I don't like the implied idea that women shouldn't be given all the facts and concerns and can read around the issue and allowed to make their minds up themselves

Agree completely. Women should be given all the facts.

It's the same with the 6% rape convictions as a proportion of reported rapes figure. Like it or not that is a highly relevant statistic for a woman considering whether to report a rape

I don't have a problem with the statistic per se. My issue is that too many people think it is the proportion of cases that get to court which result in conviction. As long as people are clear as to what that statistic really means I am perfectly happy with it.

It's definitely not a fucking misunderstanding.

I reported. I went through the whole ptocess through to a guilty verdict and a 12 year sentence for my rapist. And yet... I still wouldn't wholeheartedly advise other women to report. Because I know what they'll go through if they do. And it's not fucking nice.

Hearing a man, particularly one who sets himself up as an expert, sanctimoniously pontificate about he'd really like to understand why women drop out of the process makes me want to punch him in the face, frankly.

I am quite happy that it should be clarified. But there is a reluctance to accept that it is a critical statistic.

And yes, that is you I'm talking about.

This case alone has writ large exactly why so many women would walk away from going through the sort of hell X in this case has gone through.

And that was even before the sexual history witnesses and after CE had been convicted at the first trial.

And all this legal mansplaining is basically saying "silly women. Silly women's groups, silly feminists and silly rape victims. They scaremonger, they listen to scaremongering because they're too silly to understand and that must be why they don't report. If you silly women stopped discussing the issue, other silly women wouldn't unnecessarily get scared to report".

And yet they totally ignore the fact that CE's victim's experience is real. Anyone of us could be her. Her case may be extreme due to the level of media attention, but it's got things in common with most of the rape cases taking place up and down the country right now.

But men don't see that. They will never feel the empathy of knowing that they could be that woman.

Because it's just an academic exercise to them. A point of intellectual interest that will never actually affect them (unless they're a rapist, in which case it helps them).

A straight man will never stand in a witness box being quizzed on his sexual history and told that he's responsible for being raped, and it couldn't be rape anyway because everyone knows he's a slag.

YY Woman. Totally agree. I can deal with the idea of the intellectual masturbation, but when it's dressed up as faux concern that feminists and anti rape groups are terrible for calling out a problem, I lose my shit a bit.

A straight man will never stand in a witness box being quizzed on his sexual history and told that he's responsible for being raped, and it couldn't be rape anyway because everyone knows he's a slag.

Yes, yes. Totally. I 've never been raped, but I can feel that fear, know it could be me.