Burkini banned in France

[LifeIsGoodish]

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

Ohyou, "why do men not in general choose to wear skirts or dresses"

Men do wear skirts and dresses all over the world. Kilts even. Men from hot climes wear sarongs and over middle east and africa they wear those shirt dresses.

They wear them in London too. I was coming in opposite direction to a guy wearing a maxi shirt dress who was on his way to a mosque. Lots of other guys in similar dress. He wasn't wearing trousers underneath either as was apparent from the shape of his outline when the wind blew the shirt dress and molded it against the front of his body. Jeans would have been way more modest if that was what he was after.

ok, I take your point Pangurban :)

I remember years ago going on a long bus trip to visit a swimming pool on a scorching day with a load of Muslim students I was teaching. I was SO angry that when we got to the pool the boys got to cool off, but the girls just spent 2 hours fully dressed standing around. A couple of the girls waded in, in their jeans and long tops but it wasn't ideal. I was really happy to find out about the Burkini years later as it might mean more girls can go swimming without feeling self conscious.
It's wrong to ban this item which allows people who want to dress modestly to swim.

I think doing away with religious ideals that state women must be more "modest" than men might be a better idea?

'I think doing away with religious ideals that state women must be more "modest" than men might be a better idea?'

Yes I think that's a better aim.

It's not a very equal. Why are women encouraged to be so modest and completely cover up - but not the men.

"when we got to the pool the boys got to cool off, but the girls just spent 2 hours fully dressed standing around. A couple of the girls waded in, in their jeans and long tops but it wasn't ideal. I was really happy to find out about the Burkini years later as it might mean more girls can go swimming without feeling self conscious"

You see, the French way would have been to let them stew in their clothes by the pool, and to educate them to conform to the French way of life.

Not facilitate the various ways in which they choose to diverge from it and help them perpetuate the sexist, backward, patriarchal idea that women must be kept hidden away.

This is just turning into a Muslim bashing thread, I know a very well educated young Muslim women who chooses to dress modestly, even in the schorching heat, she'll wear long trousers and shirts not because she's forced to do so or was indoctrinated at a you age, she didn't start actively practising until after her teen years, but because she believes in her religion and wants to follow the guidelines given to her. So for some of you to say she doesn't understand that she's oppressed is just patronising and insulting.

This ban is pretty useless, Muslim women are the ones being punished, they'll avoid the beach now and then people will complain that they don't integrate

I was in town yesterday and thought of this thread. Young couple walking together. He's wearing long shorts, a t and trainers. She is wearing precipitously high heels, tiny shorts and a ridiculous flappy top. She had clearly been waxed, bleached, straightened and made up to fuck. She was sort of trotting to keep up with him, couldn't have run for a bus and I imagine had suffered a lot of pain (and hunger) to look like she did.

Is that freedom? I don't love how society socialized her that way but is banning what she wears better? Of course not. I'm not saying the burka is better. I'm saying these are just two faces of the patriarchy.

I "love" the way that because modesty is required of Muslims, modesty is being outlawed in the name of secularism.

Because there is no such thing as Muslim clothing, just some clothing that is culturally linked to some Muslims and modest clothing.

Chatter, nothing wrong with a state being secular. To be aspired to, I think. The world's many and disparate religious beliefs should be a personal, private matter. Not a public one.

There is something wrong when there is such a rife problem of terror attacks perpetrated against that state. It can't just be a coincidence that the militant way that France expects citizens to comply or else isn't working - people clearly aren't integrating.

I don't think anyone anywhere should be telling women what they can and can't wear - burka/Burkini/bikini/heels/etc!

I am not in agreement of baning the burkini as there are many reasons why a women might choose to where one and allows women who feel for whatever reason they can't wear a swimming costume in public to cover up and go swimming

But the full face veil is different. It is designed to shut women away from society to keep them hidden they are silenced and become invisible how can this be accepted in a progressive society when we know conservative Islam is taking hold and where then money is coming from that has had such an influence

It is a very difficult for governments to deal with this issue do we allow freedom to a point that women in certain areas of society are not seen as individuals

"There is something wrong when there is such a rife problem of terror attacks perpetrated against that state. It can't just be a coincidence that the militant way that France expects citizens to comply or else isn't working"

Correlation doesn't mean causation.

Yes, France is a secular country that is not terribly tolerant of "un-French" ways of life, especially those based on sexist worldviews that relegate women to an inferior status and hide them away. Which is different from how UK handles minorities with different worldviews.

France is also home to a significantly larger Muslim population than the UK. Why is it that you don't immediately say "They have more Muslims - That must be why they have had more terrorist attacks" but you do say "They don't allow Muslims to wear Burqas - that must be why they have more terrorist attacks"?

I have paraphrased because your words were rather vague. But this is what you meant, yes?

"She is wearing precipitously high heels, tiny shorts and a ridiculous flappy top. She had clearly been waxed, bleached, straightened and made up to fuck... Is that freedom?"

Yes, it is.

That woman was free to dress like an idiot for however long it takes her to realise that is not a way to live, and then dress in a different way.

Whereas the woman in a burqa will never have the freedom to dress differently and the one in a burkini will never have the freedom to put on a swimsuit and swim unhindered in the sea, feeling the waves on her skin and in her hair.

Why wouldn't she have the freedom?
You assume that men rule Muslim women's lives that is not the case. From personal experience I can assure you. I very much doubt you know any Muslim women in real life. Therefore tour judgement is rendered useless. Also how do you know that the above women was free to dressed to the nines? How do you know she wasn't forced?
Again assumptions, but that does seem to be the way of the thread doesn't it...

I also have a friend who used to wear niqab and doesn't anymore that was a free choice that she made. I also know women that have started to wear a niqab. Why wouldn't that be seen as a free choice?

Whereas the woman in a burqa will never have the freedom to dress differently and the one in a burkini will never have the freedom to put on a swimsuit and swim unhindered in the sea, feeling the waves on her skin and in her hair. How do you know? One of the women I know who veils is a highly educated modern woman whose DH converted to Islam for her. Her DM didn't veil, her DF didn't expect her to. She earns lots of money, is out in the world, and veils because she chooses to.

I see no difference in that choice than the women dressing according to some Page 3 model of what she should be.

Of course there are women forced to veil, as there are women forced to undress. Male violence and the patriarchy is the issue, not Islam.

"I very much doubt you know any Muslim women in real life. Therefore your judgement is rendered useless"

You know a grand total of fucking zero about me, so imho should refrain from making frankly meaningless statements like "your judgement is rendered useless".

This is not a competition for whose views are more valid according to how many Muslims they know (as you seem to think so) but since you asked, I was born and raised in a Muslim country. Nearly all of my family, most of my friends, acquaintances, and work colleagues are Muslim. One of my grandparents was a hafiz and another was a haji. I have read the Quran, not least because I had endless years of religious education on it at school.

Oh but you converted to Islam when you were 16, which means you are the bestest at knowing everything about Muslims and nobody else can have an opinion

You can continue with this ridiculous attitude or grow up and open your eyes.

FYI neither of my very devout Muslim grandmothers covered their heads or had anything against t-shirts. Contrary to what you might have been led to believe, it is entirely possible to be a Muslim woman and NOT cover oneself up head to toe.

MrsTP - re "How do you know?"

How do you not?

Once you subscribe to the view that female skin can't be visible to males lest they turn into wild beasts in heat unable to control their sexual impulses, that is the end of your freedom re what you can wear.

That girl you saw on high heels can go & change into jogging tights & trainers several hours later and go for a run. Or she can put on a bathing suit and lie in the sun or bathe in the sea. THAT is freedom.

Having to cover yourself head to toe at all times isn't, regardless of whether it is one's own self who has locked the cage.

You do realise that a burka is so restrictive that it is designed so women can only look ahead or down, making sure even what a women looks at is controlled

It's material chains keeping women oppressed and invisible to society

The niqab though not as restrictive is designed to keep women invisible, to silence them it was originally used as a way to transport women to market to sell, younger women who were more likely to be virgins were worth more hidden so their owners could protect their valuable merchandise

Progression isn't silencing women it isn't keeping women invisible it isn't taking away a women's voice and individuality

Isis have used the full face veil like it was used pre Islam to transport their merchandise this is what women and girls lives have been reduced to

How can anyone claim that the wearing of the full face veil has a place in progressive society simply because we should respect religious choice it's not far from the issue of FGM we have to look at where the influence of this religious choice comes from

I think people are misunderstanding what some posters are saying. I don't like burkas, I really don't like face covering, I don't like neck-stretching or foot-binding for that matter. It's not like, "yay, I love bukas, it's awesome feminism".

I object to men telling women what to wear and THAT INCLUDES mayors of towns in France. THAT'S my objection. Being told what to wear by their patriarchy culture on one hand and their government on the other. It makes women less free rather than more.

And by the way you only have to read recent rape cases and sexual assault statistics and comments section to realize that the idea that men can't control themselves around women who dress skimpy, dance, drink or are generally alive is very much a Western idea as well.

I would like it if women had a completely free choice in what we wear and look like. I doubt very much that we would be bleaching, waxing, burning our hair, wearing burkas OR high heels if we were truly free.

Wow Cote - you definitely took your superiority tablets this morning - yes?

Yes, France is a secular country that is not terribly tolerant of "un-French" ways of life, especially those based on sexist worldviews that relegate women to an inferior status and hide them away. Which is different from how UK handles minorities with different worldviews.

'Hides them away' yes - I see lots of Muslim women being hidden away in the UK!
Or do you mean the huge ghettos in France and sink estates?

It's very annoying non Muslim women telling me how I am feeling and if I disagree then I am brainwashed. Please. Get over yourself. Not everyone is aspiring to be like yourself. You need to see that the majority of people who convert to Islam in the UK are white females. They have had the so-called free libel life and chosen Islam over it and no - most of them don't convert to get married. There is actually a big problem trying to find a husband when you are a convert as you don't know where to start.
I used to be a raging atheist, debating and rejecting anything to do with religion. I used to think that religion was the way people explained things in the world but now that we have science we don't need religion anymore and soon the rest of the world will cotton on and join atheism.
I used to wear bikinis at the beach, went on holidays to lanzorote and got drunk and high when I felt like it.
Even though I was atheist I still used to believe in ghosts and my interest in Islam came when I learned about the Jinn. Also doing Media studies at school taught me how there is a whole system trying to make you feel a certain way when you buy a product and never feeling satisfied with what you have. Which is why we have cosmetic surgery and the rest.
I am happy being a Muslim and covering myself. I can choose to stop but I don't want to. Any system designed to make me undress myself like this Burkini one will just make me limit my activities. Also post becoming Muslim I have been on the beach in a bikini I just drive really far down the coast to a secluded part (this is in Larache, Morocco).
I also have seen other women in Muslim countries wearing bikinis alongside women wearing niqabi seimming in the sea together. No one is shouting at the other, they seem to get along just fine.
When you look at what led to the ban of burkinis in France it was due to the actions of a man. So again I ask why are women punished because of what a man done? If Muslim women were actually seen as women then you would see it as sexism but from my experience I don't think some people even see Muslim women as humans.

I don't have to take a tablet to rise up guns-a-blazing when told "I very much doubt you know any Muslim women in real life. Therefore your judgement is rendered useless"

"'Hides them away' yes - I see lots of Muslim women being hidden away in the UK!"

Yes, and that is considered OK in the UK - part of the mosaic of different cultures, horses for courses, etc. Not in France so much, though. That was my point.

I know women are still judged by many by their actions and what they are wearing how when they report being raped

our society is progressing, it's far from perfect but we are moving forward. Veiling isn't and never will be progressive because it's shuts women off from society