Burkini banned in France

[LifeIsGoodish]

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

For those women who do not have the choice to uncover their is very little we can do for them except pressure our own governments to exert more pressure on those nations to change their laws

So basically it's tough shit. If regressive cultures are being brought over from extremist countries that make a totally shrouded women look more religious than a woman that simply wants to wear a head scarf - then tough? How can we expect our country to put pressure on other countries when we can't even safe guard our own women? It has a massive impact on families, marriages, social stature the fact that you think that some of these women can just 'resist' shows how adamant you are to not believe the amount of real pressure some of these women are under. I honestly can't take your posts seriously any more. It's not about just 'leaving' many women/girls don't want to leave - they love their families but feel conflicted at wanting to be a good religious woman.

I mean we have to universally agree on what we believe inequality to be. Many muslim women would not consider headscarves as symbols of inequality or sexist so we have to respect that view even if we don't agree with it not impose our interpretations on them. It's just like those who would say women who wear revealing clothing are just out to get attention. We shouldn't accept stereotyping of others in any form.

Mrs said it much better then me about how we should help those women who are forced to cover against their will. I hole heartedly agree with her.

Also sorry to hear about your negative experiences Atlas Don't bother trying to change yourself to please anyone. There will always be ignorant people waiting to criticise your every move. But I hope this thread has shown that there are people who respect your right to decide for yourself about how you live your life and choose to dress

Ugh wholeheartedly

Nina I really don't believe you give 2 shiny shits about Muslim women. We have a Muslim woman on this thread who has told you she has suffered discrimination for choosing to cover up and feels the opposite pressure loving here from the one you are adamant she has imposed on her and you completely ignore it. It is not repressive to wear a headscarf or burqa. These are religious symbols to muslim women not the politicak statements some people are adamant to make them out to be. What is repressive is in 2016 to not give women a choice over what they choose to wear whether it's something that you like or not and that is whether it happens in Saudi, Iran, Turkey, France, Belgium or Sweden. I 100% believe forcing Muslim women to uncover against their will is degrading and a violation just as much as it is to force someone to cover up. Stop treating Muslim women like babies who can't stick up for themselves. Of course they can resist. The problem is if they are totally dependant on others so lack the confidence to challenge their oppressors. That's why they should be supported to become independent. For example I really approved on the changes to the law to make learning English compulsory for anyone applying for British nationality. That helps women. Supporting community groups and leaders who can mediate in these situations so women don't have to leave their families would also help but at the end of the day if someone is abusing you to that extent
the only way you can stop it is to get away from them.

As for other countries unless you want to bring back colonialism you have to leave it in the hands of people in those countries. I believe that Saudi is starting to change because of the pressure placed on it from foreign countries. All you can do is support those campaigning there and hope that reform happens sooner rather than later.

So basically it's tough shit. Well I personally am working with new Syrian immigrants on tenancy issues, converting some of our teaching materials into Arabic, making relationships with the local mosque and teaching both Muslim men and women their housing rights, with interpretation. And I have been working with newcomer organizations and Muslim educators on this. In my classes there have been women in tank tops and women in headscarves.

One woman uncovered her head when she realized I was female and there were no men in the group. We had an excellent discussion about families sharing space with the added pressure because they want to uncover at home and don't around non-family men. Single mother BTW with no male family in the country. So social pressure possibly but no immediate male family pressure.

That's what I'm doing. Not fuck all.

"Just because you don't want to cover doesn't mean you get to decide the life choices of everyone else."

That is the difference between the UK perspective and the French mindset.

In the UK, the idea is that each community lives as they like, respectfully, differently but in harmony, etc.

In France, the idea is that there is the French way and that is how you need to be if you want to live there. You don't have to be exactly like them, but you can't live in a way that is completely against the tenets of French culture and civilisation such as égalité. Which means no hiding women away because the sight of their arms might cause sexual thoughts in men.

I cover myself from head to toe in the sun. Big hats, long trousers/skirts, long sleeves. You'd be hard pressed to make out my form if I am somewhere hot. I have very fair type 1 skin and have a big risk of skin cancer. I always burn if not protected in the sun. If the burkini was like the Australian type factor 50 fabrics, I would be tempted to wear one. With a peaky cap instead of balaclava type head thing. I think they are a good idea for people like myself.

I know the burkini is ostensibly a piece of clothing adopted for cosmetic reasons. Its purpose is to do with appearance. However, for people with fair skin, it is a good protective idea if made with correct material. I have swam in the sea with long sleeve tee's over my swimsuit in the past (in hot climes) and hate ruining clothes not meant for salt water.

Would someone like me be prevented from protecting my skin from burning in these places now?

need I honestly don't care what you believe about me. You have no idea of my back ground or experience. Just because I not reeling off credentials of why my opinion matters most doesn't make my opinion less valid than yours.

Look at all those women matching on the picture (seen as you would open the liking even though you was asking for proof) because the next day it was illigal not to cover up. Illigal. Those women did not have a choice. That was over 36 years ago. A whole generation growing up thinking that it is modest and normal to cover up now ehen there mothers aunts and grandmothers marched against it.

I'm not a hardened supporter of Muslim women's rights im a supporter of womens rights - especially women embroiled in heavy regious topics as it's actually effected my family a lot. And going back to it bring easy to leave - not it isn't, many women have had a life time of this bullshit poured down their thoats it's a huge conflict for them to walk away or reach out and get help.

I touched on religious extremism effecting women up thread regarding certain sects of Jewish folk banning women from driving - in London. There are sects that demand the newly wed woman shaved off all her hair and wears a wig instead. Women thst resist are in big trouble but are under immense pressure to do it - often by their mothers, is that their choice too? Is that ok ? But like I said that's another thead.

The point is I support womens rights, I'm
Not a racist which your just gagging to accuse me off - I just can not support any political statements (because the burka is not a religious symbol) that are man made to oppress women. Why is the burka not gold or red or blue like it originally was? Why has it moved to black in the last decade or so? This not religious. And it's foolish to pretend it is.

I've not ignored the two Muslim posters on this thread in fact I've tried to engage with them.

How the fuck do you believe SA is trying to change? Are you kidding me! How do you know this ?

In France, the idea is that there is the French way and that is how you need to be if you want to live there. You don't have to be exactly like them, but you can't live in a way that is completely against the tenets of French culture and civilisation such as égalité.

I think the problem though is in France if you don't look or sound like a typical French person you won't be accepted either regardless of how much you conform to their societal values/behaviours etc. I watched a programme about French Muslims where a young French Muslim woman spoke about her challenges finding a job. She did not wear a headscarf, spoke fluent French, grew up in a middle class French neighbourhood and studied at one of the top French universities. With her qualifications she found work abroad easily. However, when she came back to France she kept being rejected whenever she applied for a job. She experimented and applied for jobs using her Muslim name sometimes (something like Aisha or Sandra can't remember) and a French name like Madeline other times. She said whenever she applied using her French name she got called for an interview but when she applied using her Muslim name she was rejected. This was despite having the same qualifications and experience on both CVs.

I know someone personally who had this happen to them. Her parents were of African origin but she was born and brought up in France. She spoke fluent French. She applied for a job and had a telephone interview where her potential employers seemed to really like her so called her for a face to face interview. She turned up to the interview and was told that they couldn't hire her because there clients wouldn't accept being served by someone like her.

I think that the UK is superior in that regard that overt discrimination on race or religious grounds is completely unacceptable. It's much better at integrating different communities then France where there seems to be a lot more ghettoisation.

Banning burkinis will not liberate women. They will simply not go to the beach, whether by their choice or someone else's.

telling women what to wear is an attempt to control them. It's bad when a husband does it, it's bad when a brother does it, and it's bad when the government does it.

France is a secular state which is against public religious symbols. A burkini is a public symbol. Perfectly normal. Whats the big deal. Don't like it dont live in France.

Whats the big deal. Don't like it dont live in France.

don't like having your rights trampled on? Don't live in France.

This is obviously an incredibly complex issue for liberals - is it liberal to allow people to express their religion however they want or is it liberal to outlaw parts an archaic, misogynistic, sexist where women are forced to dress a certain way and forgo many freedoms. And this doesn't even include the extremism and terrorism aspect...

Its a question many people shy away from and by doing this has it helped women and girls having more choices

Then on the other side, all the people saying, "why can't the asylum seekers stay in France, it's a safe country. Why are they coming to the UK. Must be benefits". I swear some people can't win.

And before anyone goes on about women in burkinis not having a choice, I think the same argument applies albeit in a different way to how women should dress in general (pressure to wear a bikini or be topless on some beaches in France).

Well quite. Object to both or neither. I'd pick 'both' myself but I wouldn't try to enforce it.

The Burkini ban IS different in a French context to the way it would be understood here, but it's still too far IMHO; populist, knee jerk, pointless but intrusive.

Hollande is really flailing.

I am a bit confused...does france outlaw all religious wear in public? So what about the jewish cap or the traditional mens attire with the suit and black hat? Sorry, i dont know if they have specific names. What about the orthodox jewish ladies who wear wigs to cover their hair? Is all of that outlawed too? I am just surprised because i thought france had the highest number of muslims and jews in Europe. It seems odd that it is trying to strip the 2 big minorities of their indentity or try to make them invisible or 'blend in'.

Kippah or Yarmulke for the skull cap. I'm not sure whether the orthodox garb has a name. I think they are included in the French secular dress laws, yes.

I can't see that wigs can be included, although maybe the headscarf/snood approach would be?

Yay for the burkini ban! A middle aged, middle class man should definitely legistlate on what I wear. I applaud this ruling.😀

Oh Dione you're such a nice little woman

Another non-Muslim here who would love a burkini. I just find it appalling that people are being ordered to undress or not allowed on the beach.

So glad to see that at least in this case, there are not so many posters treating Muslim women as if they were underage and in need of protection from themselves as on so many other mumsnet threads.

I live in Saudi. I don't cover my hair when out and about. I do wear an Abaya.

Yes, things here are improving for women. In the year I've been here, there are noticeably more ladies serving in shops, they got to vote, and stand in elections - note, this is only the third set of elections ever held in KSA, so while female vote is much later than in other countries, voting is not a regular occourance for anyone here.
There are also serious restrictions on women over here.

Very few ladies here wear burkinis. The few I've seen go into the sea wear an abaya. I don't know what is underneath. That said, swimming costume are hard to find too. Swimming isn't a popular past time - it seems to be the expat population who want pools.

Jewish men/boys can and do wear a kippah when out and about in France and some religious Jewish women dress very "modestly" day-to-day. There is quite a lot of friction within the Jewish community about whether or not it is appropriate to wear identifiably Jewish attire day-to-day - my Jewish DP and his friends get pretty cross about it.

Quoting myself
"I live in Saudi. I don't cover my hair when out and about. I do wear an Abaya"
And amending for clarity.
As a (none Muslim) visitor to Saudi, there is no requirement for me to cover my hair. So my comment was in response to statements from earlier about visiting Saudi and attire. However, some friends have been asked to, but it hasn't caused issues in this less conservative area. If I was a Saudi national female, I would be required to veil as well - so abaya and niqab or burka.

I am glad that the practice of wearing burka and burkinis has been strongly and openly criticised by the French. It is a practice that demonstrates sexism and inequality to women.

I hope the UK will follow suit and not be so cautious criticising this practice. We have equality laws that are supposed to protect people (and women) from discrimination.

Inkanta if you think women making a choice to wear a particular type of swimwear is discrimination then that is delusional and insulting to those who truly face discrimination. However discrimination is an accurate description of the actions of France to ban women from using the beach because of their clothing is deemed too covered. You have seen above many non Muslims saying they would wear a burkini for lots of reasons including protecting their skin from the sun. This law discriminates against all of them whatever reason they choose or need to be more covered.

Also it actually it makes things more unequal. Those women will now not be able to swim in the water and may stay away from the beach altogether. How is that helping them to be more equal. It is a bit simple minded really to assume because they will not be able to wear burkini they will now wear bikinis or one piece swim suits. More like they just won't go anymore. Such a great improvement to their lives this law will be.