Burkini banned in France

[LifeIsGoodish]

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

"Are they victims or aggressors here?"

Clothes, a woman's weapon eh?

It's ever so ironic that many of those arguing vehemently for the authoritarian ban and punishment of women wearing a burkini and, in actual fact the whole media discourse around the Burkini Beach Ban perpetuates age-old sexist myths. So unproductive.

Can I also express my discomfort with the ugly stereotypes around "the average Muslim male" - there are so many negative assumptions of coercion and aggression and lasciviousness that are seem to be based on assumptions rather than experiences. Muslim men, like Muslim women are a huge diverse group with a range of attitudes, behaviours and cultures and all those I know are very comfortable around women- as their partners, friends, managers at work and society in general. They are observant in their faith and also respect the intelligence and autono my of the women around them.

Would there be the option for many Muslim women to wear a bikini if they so chose? Would it be frowned on? Would there be repercussions? Or would most be happy to say as long as she is happy that's her choice.

As long as there is absolutely free choice and I mean no feeling that you have to do something because a book or other person feels you should, then ok.

I'm aware this is likely a stupid question, but I'm curious and don't want to assume. What, exactly is a Muslim lady's political statement if she covers? Is it just saying 'I'm proud to be Muslim and you can't make me ashamed?' If so, even though I strongly disagree with face coverings, that's sort of admirable.

Special the claim was made by friends who left Lebanon in the 1980s and have lived in Europe since. They are women in their 40s and 50s, very liberal and have never covered themselves, for context.

Their feeling is that those women wearing burkhas, and by extension burkinis in France, in the face of laws stating not to, it's an 'I'll do what I want, fuck your law' gesture.

But my friends are very opposed to covering; I find Lebanese Muslims much less likely to wear any traditional covering, and in Europe almost never.

'Their feeling is that those women wearing burkhas, and by extension burkinis in France, in the face of laws stating not to, it's an 'I'll do what I want, fuck your law' gesture.'

Right, well it sounds like there might be some truth in that and if that's the case then there is something going on that I find hard to articulate.

Muslim men start this covering up oppressive rule. Women are oppressed but at the same time empowered in their collusion with the men in the wearing of this Burka or Burkini uniform. They are on the same team as the men, although men do not wear a uniform of their own, and they are happy to give their full support to the men folk.

Something like that - is my take on it.

So the reasons for the ban one by one.

1. It's impractical and hot. Rash suits, wetsuits and having clothes on isn't banned.
2. It's a sign of terrorism. Unless you supported armed police removing crucifixes from Catholics and wimples from nuns when the IRA were trying to blow us up; bullshit.
3. It's liberating women. Nope, it's just forcing them to uncover or stay away.
4. It's dangerous to cover. See 1.
5. It's religious. So? Sikhs can still wear turbans on a beach.
6. It's inciting because of recent events in France. There are well over a billion Muslims. A tiny tiny proportion of them are terrorists, as are a tiny proportion of Christians, atheists and Jewish people. Apart from the obvious fact that most terrorists are male, so removing women's clothes seems odd.
7. France is secular. See 5. And it's a cultural piece of clothing, not religious. Plenty of Muslim women don't cover and plenty of other people do.

Have I missed anything?

Inkanta you’ve hit the nail on the head there. It’s all about visibility and advertising. The burkini is a recent innovation, but if the Islamic dress code is ‘modesty’ – which can be achieved with long trousers, long-sleeved tunic and scarf, why didn’t all those women mentioned frolicking in the Middle Eastern waterparks upthread just wear that, instead of sitting in their robes on the sidelines?

The burkini is allowed, because, Nigella notwithstanding, it STILL clearly identifies the wearers as Muslims. An effect which they can't achieve with normal clothes.

It's hard to sympathise with someone if their position is 'fuck your laws!'

This is all way too political for me, I'm simply not smart enough. My own personal guess is that because terrorism is so unpredictable, France is desperate to be seen as 'doing something.' This is something easy to do, even if it actually has nothing to do with terrorism.

If women hadn't said fuck your laws we wouldn't have the vote. Absolutely fuck sexist laws! If I was in France I would be on the beach in a burkini today.

I think a far more apt 'fuck sexist laws' gesture would be to go the beach today in a bikini in Jeddah.

Interesting

1. It's worse in Saudi. Well durrrrrr. Should we really be basing our laws in western democracies on what they do in totalitarian shitholes? Really? Or should we lead by example and be open, liberal, empathetic and diverse?

When we were kids we have to wear certain clothes at school, when we get jobs we have to wear certain clothes, when we go to ceremonies we have to wear certain clothes. We can't go out in public wearing swimwear, we can't wear what ever we want in a swimming pool. What is the difference adding in a condition to what you wear on the beach.

It seems perfectly normal to ban the iconography of a group that is terrorizing their country.

Exactly how many Muslim women have carried out acts of terror in France? I'll wait... Then compare to anarchists and similar. I think we should ban Lennon glasses and black turtlenecks.

But Mrs T, it's the Wahhabi teachings coming out of that totalitarian shithole that has led to the proliferation of these extreme coverings that are a very recent phenomena.

That's why they should not be part of open liberal society.

If they are truly a choice for women, then let the women who chose to live in countries where they are banned, chose to follow that law.

I'm not so convinced that's the case.

But I'm talking, as I said, as someone who's been beaten and witnessed horrible violence against women for not covering so I see it differently my liberal Western sisters.

*choose

Please don't let the paucity of my spelling detract from my sincerity

We can't go out in public wearing swimwear

We can. I live near the sea and sail, surf and swim all year. I wear bikinis, full body cover wet suit with boots and gloves, rash vests, board shorts - nobody has ever challenged what I am wearing when I walk along the road.

But Mrs T, it's the Wahhabi teachings coming out of that totalitarian shithole that has led to the proliferation of these extreme coverings that are a very recent phenomena.

Except it isn't. 'Modest' swim wear is common to sections of all the Abrahamic religions, and its growth has accompanied the increase in rash vests and uv protective swim wear in countries where people are concerned about skin cancer.

There is a gap in the market and the clothing technology to fulfil a need.

You might disagree with the concept of 'modest swimwear', but women wear it for many reasons and it isn't confined to Muslims.

all those (Muslim men) I know are very comfortable around women- as their partners, friends, managers at work and society in general

I'm genuinely glad that's been your experience and only wish I shared it

I'm a retired recruitment company owner whose sector involved mainly muslim employees. Sadly, a significant proportion of the men had a very different attitude, which extended not only to myself as a white woman in a position of authority, but even to fellow muslim women employees, some of whom were treated with barely veiled contempt for having dared to leave the home at all

I've posted about this before, but one even demanded the replacement of a massively qualified white female trainer - a stance which brought no comment from the muslim women present because, some told me later, "they couldn't challenge a man because of the disgrace it would bring in the community"

Considering these were professional women, it seemed a sad state of affairs

No, it's the Wahhabi teachings that are fuelling the growth of extreme covering in Europe

In the 70s and 80s, none of my Muslim school friends, or their mothers, ever wore such garments. I'm taking about holidays on the French and Italian rivieras, parts of Scandinavia and the U.K. in the one hot summer I can remember.

I think modest is a different, secular concept.

I think a burkini is a religious and political and, in these times, inflammatory gesture.

Again, people are confusing the burkini, which was designed in Australia with the burkha. I am sure any muslim woman who felt she had to wear a burkha wouldn't be seen dead in a burkini.

No, modest is a religious and secular concept.

Both Orthodox Jews and Christians have followers who believe in modest dress. (Including Mayim Bialik of Big Bang theory and blossom fame). European Muslims wear head cover for many different reasons - cultural identity, taste, religion, and yes sometimes by force.

Why assume what is going on inside somebody else's head? Even if they are being deliberately provocative by not hiding their faith on the beach, the strength of being part of a free society is that we are better than that.

Apparently it's called a 'burkini' purely for the pun value and the Australian woman who designed it didn't know much about actual Burkhas. (unsurprisingly as it is nothing like a Burkha and is a cross between a wetsuit and a rash vest)

Even if they are being deliberately provocative by not hiding their faith on the beach, the strength of being part of a free society is that we are better than that

In principle I agree, but a free society can only be truly free within a framework of generally accepted behaviours and expectations, and one of those expectations involves the state protecting its citizens

Nobody suggests the muslim lady sitting on a beach is a threat in herself, but surely it's what she's seen to be representing that's the concern, in terms of separation and yes, the "f**k your laws" thing? I'm not especially comfortable with what France are doing myself, but given the circumstances they're facing I find it hard to blame them

I really don't think this is a good look for France. It feels like the imposition of martial law and the fact that, apparently, other beach goers applauded is pretty awful.

That said, it is just one incident in a country that is on the edge, and I'm beginning to feel uncomfortable with the France bashing too. I went to France last summer, before 13/11 but just after the aborted attack on the train. I remember thinking how different France was to the uk and seeing soldiers and police everywhere. I'm sure I could have posted a pithy mumsnet AIBU on French militarism and overreaction - jolly glad I didn't when 130 were slaughtered and 450 were injured (no injured feelings, you know, real limbs amputated and the like).

My point is there for the grace of God go we. Sure this is an overreaction and sure this is counterproductive but the French are under siege. Cazeneuve said yesterday they have intercepted another 5 active planned attacks in recent weeks. It's fine for us to sit here tutting and talking about tolerance and 19th century anarchists. They don't know what to do anymore and this is a grossly stupid course of action but French people I know - the kind who voted for Hollande - simply don't know how to stop this madness and are fearful too that Le Pen will ride this wave.