Burkini banned in France

[LifeIsGoodish]

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

Is this lack of critical thinking, or not comprehending how a country’s culture can be usurped from within, not understanding that there is an ideology that wants to, by stealth, over years, tip the French constitution out of the window.

Right. And this vast slow-moving insidious ideology is best combated by ... dictating to women what they can and can't wear on the beach.

Brilliant. The future of the French Constitution is in safe hands.

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/24/french-police-make-woman-remove-burkini-on-nice-beach

some of you here probably would have joined in with those jeering as the 4 armed police stood to watch her uncover.

just to repost again from needabreaknow earlier post upthread:

And Arundhati Roy, another icon of post colonialism, writes, "When, as happened recently in France, an attempt is made to coerce women out of the burqa rather than creating a situation in which a woman can choose what she wishes to do, it’s not about liberating her, but about unclothing her. It becomes an act of humiliation and cultural imperialism. It’s not about the burqa. It’s about the coercion. Coercing a woman out of a burqa is as bad as coercing her into one.”

So those are suitable alternatives to the burkini? Why then is the burkini a necessity? As far as I can see these have been around for years. There is no problem any woman could wear these on the beach and feel happy and comfortable. The sun aspect is covered and they are good for swimming. Why not just switch to one of these options with a swim cap, problem solved.

Personally I believe if we all had less hang ups over body image and our bodies the better. We are all perfect in our way, even if we have stretch marks etc, we shouldn't be afraid to show that, very few have the body of a supermodel. No one has to wear a bikini there are plenty of nice choices in between. Just like no bloke should have to wear budgie smugglers.

What I'm saying its down to the choice element. No one should feel compelled to wear any item. Either because of pressure from a man/family/community or the imaginary friend of their choice or even the media/society as a whole. As long as it's a totally free choice not driven by these factors I don't see a problem.

"It is not the same as Saudi though. Saudi you have no choice you have to cover. "

And neither do you in France when you go to the beach where, based on photographic evidence an ordinary mother can be forced by a group of police men, not to only pay a fine, but to undress herself in front of onlookers, her family and the global meid audience.

I am a huge Francophile, have lived in France for a year and am not a friend of overt head covering especially where you can't see a woman's eyes or face. Burkinins seem one more step backwards and instinctively make me feel wtf because I hold secular views and can't stand it when men see bossing around woman as their birth right (patriarchy).

I am aghast about the terror attacks in France. But ffs this approach is so going to back fire. How do French politicians think aggressively humiliating the most disenfranchised members of French society (Muslim woman) publicly to make a weak and meal point? When I saw those pictures I thought the civil unrest that will ensue from here is going to be something we haven't yes seen.

The global, capitalist response has kicked in quickly (no news is bad new for business) Ban boosts burkini sales 'by 200%'.

Just imagine how the images in the DM can be used for radicalising people of all ages and possibly entice non-Muslims convert to make a political point.

"some of you here probably would have joined in with those jeering as the 4 armed police stood to watch her uncover." I sincerely hope not but you never know.

MOon I agree with what Arundhati Roy said.

• meid media of course

• meal meek

I'm curious, assuming the lady in question reads the papers, watches the news and saw the signage up, she would have been aware of the rules pertaining to the beach at Nice? I'm guessing that she decided to risk it and go anyway or she knowingly did it, knowing the new ruling and was pulled up on it. I think however the French police could have dealt with it in a more sensitive way, but not having been there and heard the conversation it's difficult to comment, maybe they gave her a choice, leave the beach or take off some of the covering. However they at least did not ask her to strip to a bikini or go topless.

Could she have avoided it with the purchase of one of the swimsuits I posted before and a swim cap? I suspect all of the above would have not even merited a second glance.

I would never convert to a religion to make a political point as it would be insincere. There are better ways of doing it.

I only disagree with covering where it is not a choice and driven by a patriarchal system which means women's rights and choices as human beings are not upheld.

some of you here probably would have joined in with those jeering as the 4 armed police stood to watch her uncover
^^ yes this
I am appalled at the treatment of these women. They are no threat to anyone. Bullying a middle-aged woman to take off some of her clothes? Is that seriously going to liberate anyone?
It's not going to make France a safer place - if anything, it makes it more of a target.
If a white woman was wearing exactly the same things, she would not have been accosted.

Liberté, égalité, fraternité?
Liberty, equality, fraternity?
They have thrown away every single one of their own core values.

The pictures also show her being ticketed and probably fined. So it was a double punishment.

The sad thing is that these pictures will invoke the never far from the surface dormant response of the average muslim male, when he feels threatened, to keep his wife and daughters at home. knowing that there is now a dynamic where to get at them they will humiliate the women of their community they will tell those women to stay indoors. Because patriarchy becomes more entrenched under hostile conditions it does not lessen.
The Islamist and islamophobe will have the same reaction to this woman's anguish, 'why did she go on the beach then?'. The former because it is far easier to blame the woman for any sexual abuse or harassment she suffers than to deal with the men who have humiliated her or their unfair laws.

'If you hadn't gone there, this wouldn't have happened to you' will be what the fundamentalists and extremists will say. Because they don't think a burkini is modest enough anyway, so they like everyone else want to force muslim women to either have a religious life or a secular life. The convent or the street. choose one or the other there is no moderation or balance. So we are caught between a rock and a hard place.

It is a big question isn't it. What is modest? Because it means different things clearly to different people. For example I am sitting here in a sundress and flip flops which considering it's climbing towards 30 outside is a modest solution to the weather. But in the eyes of a traditional Islamic man I am flaunting myself like a harlot and am no better than if I was selling myself. It comes down to the idea that a woman's body is not her own property and must be covered to avoid being 'taken' by another.

Solving the gap between the expectations of one culture and another? Bigger problem than me or anyone here can solve really.

Bikinis are banned in many Muslim countries. It's a natural and logical response tbh.

Covering up your women or locking them up is often the last stand of powerless weak men. Because neither can they take on the men with guns.

And yet the BBC reports Burkini sales are rocketing. The ban, and associated publicity, seem to have alerted people to the face an alternative to a bikini or one piece exist.
Yes, I cover up more in the pool in the Middle East than in the UK - but it's because the sun is so strong, I wear a costume and rash top (and sunglasses when swimming) to protect my skin.

Much as I believe the wearing of burkinis and burkas is down to male rules and male oppression, I don't get the impression female Muslims ever rally against it, unless I have missed something.

I have never heard of any movement , like the Suffragette movement ( Votes for Women) whereby Muslim women challenge the expectations from men to cover up. Do Muslim women ever feel aggrieved? I can't see much changing unless there is a grievance.

As for yesterday, yes the scenes on the beach with the Muslim woman being instructed (I assume) to take her burkini top off didn't look pretty, although, as has been said, we don't know how the conversation went. The police need to find non intimidating ways of enforcing the ban.

As a quick google reveals though there always have been alternatives to it. I've seen the one pieces above around for years, I sometimes wear a swim dress as it's a good beach to bar alternative, a burkini is far from being the only alternative to the traditional.

I cover up when the sun is at it's hottest, but usually in a light kaftan style top from Asda and there are beach sarongs. There are also sunhats, I wore one myself almost constantly on holiday because it was extremely hot.

Muslim countries are entitled to ban the bikini and Europeans visiting those countries have not spoken out against this, we accept they have their views and we are guests and even if we live there we have to abide my the majority norms, it would be rude not to do so, however much you disagree. However when the boot is on the other foot it seems that it doesn't work the other way.

Some women are rebelling, the mystealthyfreedom movement in Iran is one. Not all the Muslim women of my aquaintance wear a veil, many of them do not consider it to be an obligation, and one I do know will wear a conventional swimsuit on the beach, however she also never wears a hijab either. It is possible, but I guess it would depend on family background.

Bikinis are banned in many Muslim countries. It's a natural and logical response tbh.
Only if you aspire to living in a country where women are told what they are allowed to wear by men.
I am proud of living in a country with more freedoms than that.
We are better than Saudi Arabia.

'Some women are rebelling, the mystealthyfreedom movement in Iran is one. Not all the Muslim women of my aquaintance wear a veil, many of them do not consider it to be an obligation, and one I do know will wear a conventional swimsuit on the beach, however she also never wears a hijab either.'

Sportinguista - with the Muslim women you know would you say that there is quiet rebellion going on. I never hear of any protest movements in this country or Europe even.

Despite there being some very good, well written posts on this thread, people are now talking about Muslim women needing to rebel against the burkini that is imposed by men. I despair at the wanton ignorance of people who really just want to have an excuse to hate muslims.

No it's individual choice to be honest, they are what I'd call more westernised though in that they all work often in better jobs than average and don't have husbands who wear traditional garb either. I did ask one about the reasons why some did and some didn't and she linked it to educational level as well as family background. I know that isn't always the case though.

I would say the opposite is happening around this area and more women are covering in more dramatic ways. My neighbours wife has started doing so. We all know what she looks like anyway though. Not sure why this may be the case.

I have not done so Atenco, I have made it clear that there are some that do, some don't choose to veil. The mystealthyfreedom movement in Iran is a fact, you can look it up. These women are choosing to rebel against the fact that for them there is no choice. As I've stated I have friends who are Muslim. I don't really see them as the religion, I see them more as my friends who happen to be Muslim. I'm Pagan, I'm open about it to them, I think for them as well they see my beliefs as being secondary to the person I am. I don't tend to advertise it or talk about it non stop either though.

'Despite there being some very good, well written posts on this thread, people are now talking about Muslim women needing to rebel against the burkini that is imposed by men. I despair at the wanton ignorance of people who really just want to have an excuse to hate muslims.'

AtencoI I think there is a good debate on this thread. Why not join in the debate rather than go on the attack, with your use of words - 'ignorance' and 'excuse to hate muslims'.

Do you think the wearing of a burkini is influenced or 'imposed' by Muslim men?

Inkata I have a wide range of female Muslim friends and aquaintances ranging back decades from when I was at school and worked in many Gulf states, as well as knowing Muslims who live in Europe.

Empirically speaking, I would say that many women are covering more than ever before, especially in the UK. Muslims who don't cover tell me it is a political statement to wear the kind of extreme covering that was once only seen in rare pockets of Knightsbridge.

Those who are forced to cover where they live are astonished that Muslums who live in the West would chose to do so at all.

They (Muslims who live in France) are also not convinced that the woman on the beach was being anything other than provocative. There is a lot of anger in certain communities and I fear that these women are being encouraged to stand as symbols of defiance against French ruling against covering.

I am still wondering whether the women continuing to flout the ban believe they have a choice to wear it or not. Are they victims or aggressors here?

Sports, I wasn't referring to any one poster in particular.

Inkanta, I have been participating in the discussion, I wrote that out of frustration because posters are continuing to confuse burkhas and burkhinis, and assume that Muslim women only cover up because men so order, when these things have been repeatedly explained by better people that me further up the thread.