Burkini banned in France

[LifeIsGoodish]

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

I really don't think this is a good look for France. It feels like the imposition of martial law and the fact that, apparently, other beach goers applauded is pretty awful.

That said, it is just one incident in a country that is on the edge, and I'm beginning to feel uncomfortable with the France bashing too. I went to France last summer, before 13/11 but just after the aborted attack on the train. I remember thinking how different France was to the uk and seeing soldiers and police everywhere. I'm sure I could have posted a pithy mumsnet AIBU on French militarism and overreaction - jolly glad I didn't when 130 were slaughtered and 450 were injured (no injured feelings, you know, real limbs amputated and the like).

My point is there for the grace of God go we. Sure this is an overreaction and sure this is counterproductive but the French are under siege. Cazeneuve said yesterday they have intercepted another 5 active planned attacks in recent weeks. It's fine for us to sit here tutting and talking about tolerance and 19th century anarchists. They don't know what to do anymore and this is a grossly stupid course of action but French people I know - the kind who voted for Hollande - simply don't know how to stop this madness and are fearful too that Le Pen will ride this wave.

The lady on the beach didn't appear to be wearing a burkini though, and there would be no opportunity to say f**k your laws if the ban on burkinis didn't exist.

From a philosophical point of view it's so easy to challenge the consistency of the ban. Burkinis are too oppressive, but a woman can be turned away from a film premiere in Cannes because her shoes aren't glamorous enough (i.e too flat); and you can be sure that there will be plenty of men parading their paunches on the French beaches while women's magazines are full of diets and advertisements for bottom reducing cream. (If that is still popular post Kim kardashian? Are we all supposed to have big but perky bottoms now?)

I think you are a totally confused person. Not allowing a muslim woman to wear a burkini is NOT interfering with the practice of faith. Give me a break.

oh, excellent. So that is completely compatible with laicite. if it's not a religious symbol, it should be fine.

I couldn't care less if it is classed as a religious garment or not. France is clearly not motivated by this distinction either. For me, NO ONE should tell another adult what to wear. Not another man, and certainly not the government.

the "fk your laws" thing?

why not? There is nothing wrong with peaceful civil disobedience, and these women are throwing a very welcome "fuck you", in my opinion, at the government. Do we not allow protests now? Only if they are muslims? Protest doesn't get more peaceful than sitting on the beach with your family.

This is so totally counter productive. Because the french government regularly curbs the religious' right to expression, the religious of course pressure the government for censorship and blasphemy laws. It's a mess. Just let people be free.

but a woman can be turned away from a film premiere in Cannes because her shoes aren't glamorous enough

As far as I know, the Cannes Film Festival is a private event, so of course they should enforce whatever crazy dress they want.

the beach is a public place though.

It's very reactionary - I live in an area where there's a lot of Muslims and I spoke to a woman on the bus about it (over a shared read of the metro) and she said she only wore a loose headscarf as she didn't feel the need to do more but it's being disrespectful not only to women's choice in relation not only to religious but cultural choices. It's akin to forcing everyone who visits a nudist beach to be nude. It's not at all offensive...it's just going to cause more problem than good

these women are throwing a very welcome "fuck you", in my opinion, at the government.

Why is it welcome? Because at a time of heightened sensitivities, and with 250 dead in 18 months, it's exactly the right moment to stick it to the man? In your opinion.What you're saying in effect is that the French had it coming.

And if no one has the right to tell others how to dress presumably that extends to school uniform, office dress codes, formal wear. Oh and btw that presumably means I can nip into the mosque with shorts and vests does it?

As far as I know, the Cannes Film Festival is a private event, so of course they should enforce whatever crazy dress they want.

True - it's just an example of how mixed up society is when thinking about appropriate dress for women.

Yes what Marmite says.

These are stressful times for the French and now is not the time to say "Fuck You" to the authorities. It's a time to show some respect and sense of cohesion and nationality.

But in this case showing cohesion and nationality would mean not going to the beach or being able to swim, and the woman in the example didn't even seem to be wearing a swimming costume.

This is the time for every western country to show that we are open and tolerant and offer a better alternative - not to justify oppression because other countries are oppressive.

While I agree it is a reactionary response I think many are not looking at the wider issues in France at the moment.

There is not only the threat of terrorism that is an attack on the French way of life, there is the rise of extreme Islam there is also a rise of the far right (more in line with the BNP than UKIP) and elections are next year.

Do you ignore all calls from the right they are there ready to stir up more trouble and are gaining more support by what is seen by the government for not dealing with the growth of extreme Islam and the threat to the country

The right coming into power next year will be the end of the EU and they will come down far harder than any burkini ban on those they feel are not respecting the French way of life

The French government are really caught in a difficult position but they will go with what he majority want (and it has proved to be a popular stance and has been held up in court) right now I think they have little choice but to go along with this at a very difficult time for the country

'This is the time for every western country to show that we are open and tolerant'

No I don't think being open and tolerant is a priority right now.

National security is.

This is the time for every western country to show that we are open and tolerant and offer a better alternative - not to justify oppression because other countries are oppressive.

You're right except that won't keep any of us safe. If there's a 20 tonne tuck swerving towards me the last thing I'm gonna be thinking is 'let's be our higher selves'. The first duty of the state is to protect. That's it. It is not to support diversity or to promote respect and equality, laudable though those objectives are.

And how is this 'oppression'? And who is being oppressed? Is the average Parisian not oppressed because she doesn't know if the evening sashay to the bistro may be the last? Or the Jewish kid who looks askance at the soldiers guarding his school? Why doesn't the oh so tolerant liberal left have anything to say about the daily terror felt by those equally valuable social constituents?

The Muslim community is an essential and valuable part of our communities but they are not the only ones and to make them the sole victims of 'oppression' does a disservice to others, strips them of personal agency, and ultimately will lead to mass resentment and will fuel the rise of the Right.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

I think it is insane. Horrible, disrespectful, sexist. I'm shocked st the way it was enforced too.

This is not the way to help anyone in the long term.

If the west is so free I should be allowed to take expressed milk onto an airplane. No one is suggesting I am a terrorist! Yet I can't and banning milk on a plane hasn't stopped this Islamic terror.

I see banning Islamic symbols like the burka, head coverings and the like as being the same. They are small freedoms we have to sacrifice to defend ourselves from the spread of Islamic terrorism.

Why aren't peaceful Muslims as accepting of these small changes to make the whole society safer?

When did they change that rule? They always allowed milk.

Why is it welcome?

Because the french government is encroaching on freedoms that are enjoyed around the world. And absolutely every time is the right to stick it to the man. Rights get stepped on when tragedies happen, and you don't just stand by when that happens. These women had nothing to do with what happened.

These are stressful times for the French and now is not the time to say "Fuck You" to the authorities. It's a time to show some respect and sense of cohesion and nationality.

Except they have been clamping down on religious freedom for a decade or so. Now is just an excuse.

I see banning Islamic symbols like the burka, head coverings and the like as being the same. They are small freedoms we have to sacrifice to defend ourselves from the spread of Islamic terrorism.

What's the excuse about Sikhs and turbans in schools?

habenero20 What's the excuse about Sikhs and turbans in schools?

Sikhs aren't killing hundreds of French people. Is that not obvious?

MrsTerryPratchett Last flight i took a bottle of milk wasn't allowed past security, guess I am a mug for accepting that is acceptable behavior.

Breast milk is exempted so you should have been allowed it. And we had airport security before this round of terrorism.

I lived through the IRA. And no one called that Catholic terrorism. And there's less Catholics than Muslims so I bet the proportion is bigger. Muslims aren't killing French people, terrorists are.

Muslims aren't killing French people, terrorists are

In fact, so far all the terrorists with Muslim names seem to be petty theives who drink and take drugs, a far cry from practicing Muslims, but why let a few facts get in the way of a witchhunt.

I lived through the IRA. And no one called that Catholic terrorism.

No but they called it Irish Catholic terrorism. There were separate lines for irish and others entirely because of the IRA terrorism. Young Irish men were carefully screened going through those lines. All of the furor about muslims being profiled makes me shake my head. I was profiled, my dh was profiles and nearly everyone from my country was profiled because of the IRA - despite the fact that most IRA members weren't from my country.

The french government and local governments are doing just about as badly as you can do in this situation. There is a terrible threat of terrorism and radicalisation of muslim male youth and they respond with a ... strong response to women dressing modestly and in accordance with their religion.

I wish French women would see this as a female issue. it is utterly disheartening to me that they don't.

And as a matter of interest, how would you all feel if this clamp down on muslim women was happening in the US not France?

These are stressful times for the French and now is not the time to say "Fuck You" to the authorities. It's a time to show some respect and sense of cohesion and nationality

^^ This

FWIW I agree about the importance of being allowed to protest, but surely the way to do that is to campaign for the law to be changed? To simply choose which rules you'll follow and which you won't is a quick route to anarchy

Interesting, BTW, that nobody's answered my question about why banning burkinis amounts to banning these women from the beach - if, that is, they're just a freely chosen fashion item as some have insisted?

so far all the terrorists with Muslim names seem to be petty theives who drink and take drugs

What, ALL of them?? Do you have any evidence for that please?

Have you got any evidence any of them were burkini-clad women?