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Burkini banned in France

732 replies

LifeIsGoodish · 17/08/2016 09:23

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

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MiriamKarlin · 22/08/2016 17:58

I know we have moved away from the burkini for the moment, but consider what Professor Targey and Yasmin Alibhai-Brown have stated that the burka and hijab are not requirements of the faith. These are symbols of male oppression thought up by men many hundreds of years ago and cleverly tied it up with religion.

Here is an extract from what imam, Prof Targey, says about the burka, for example:

“The increasing fashion for young Muslim women in Britain to wear the burka (in contrast to their mothers, who do not) is one of most sinister developments of our times. Contrary to the claims of its advocates, it a cultural fad imported from Saudi Arabia and primitive parts of the Islamic world.

“Supporters of this garment like to pretend that it is a welcome symbol of our society’s multicultural diversity and philosophical tolerance. But such warped thinking is woefully misguided. In reality, the burka is an archaic tribal piece of cloth that is eagerly used by fundamentalist zealots to promote a toxic brand of extremist non-Koranic theology.

“Everyone in Britain, including Muslims, should oppose the insidious spread of this vile piece of clothing, which imprisons women, threatens social harmony, fuels distrust, has grave health implications and is a potent security risk.”

Read more:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2695181/Why-I-Muslim-launching-campaign-ban-burka-Britain.html

And an extract from Yasmin Alibhai-Brown:

“I am a Shia Muslim and I abhor the burqa. I am offended by the unchallenged presumption that women covering their heads and bodies and now faces are more pious and true than am I.

“Today control freaks who claim they have a special line to the Almighty have turned our world dark. Neo-conservative Islamic codes spread like swine flu, an infection few seem able to resist. The disease is progressive. It started 20 years ago with the hijab, donned then as a defiant symbol of identity, now a conscript's uniform. Then came the jilbab, the cloak, fought over in courts when schoolgirls were manipulated into claiming it as an essential Islamic garment.

“White liberals frame this sinister development in terms of free choice and tolerance. Some write letters to this paper: What is the problem? It is all part of the rich diversity of our nation.

“Muslim women who show their hair are becoming an endangered species. As Rahila Gupta, campaigner against domestic violence, writes: "This is a cloth that comes soaked in blood. We cannot debate the burqa or the hijab without reference to women in Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia where the wearing of it are heavily policed and any slippages are met with violence." What happened to solidarity?

“Violent enforcement is evident in Britain too. A fully veiled young chemistry graduate once came to my home, her body covered in cuts, tears, bites, bruises, all happily hidden from view. Security and social cohesion are all threatened by this trend – which is growing exponentially.

“We communicate with each other with our faces. To deny that interaction is to deny our shared humanity. Unreasonable community or nationalistic expectations disconnect essential bonds. (Governments should not accommodate such demands*. Naturists can't parade on the streets, go to school or take up jobs unless they cover their nakedness. Why should burqaed women get special consideration? Our social environment, fragile and precious, matters more than choice and custom should to British Muslims. If we don't compromise for the greater good, the future looks only more bitter and bleak. Saying so doesn't make me the enemy of my people.”

Read more:
www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhai-brown-wearing-the-burqa-is-neither-islamic-nor-socially-acceptable-1743375.html

PrettyBotanicals · 22/08/2016 18:26

Those are good points above.

I reiterate what I said earlier; if it's as free a choice as so many insist, then, for the sake of social cohesion and bringing down the tension in a country under great pressure, French Muslims could show citizenry and solidarity and understanding by closing not to wear what is, apparently, an optional yet provocative religious symbol.

MiriamKarlin · 22/08/2016 18:45

Habanero -
Why should any country be well-disposed towards accepting symbols & dress associated with the religious affiliation of the current threat they face, as well as with inequality of gender? It would be an abnormal thing to do. It would be like deleting the paragraph of the French constitution about equality, and ignoring the reason for all the recent killings.

No nation has to agree to promote symbols strongly associated with an oppressive ideology that wants to ride roughshod over the constitution and be given latitude in all things, but making no attempt to comply with the ethos and ideology of France. France is resisting having the following seen as a norm in French life: women subservient to men (and dressing to confirm they are!), girls discouraged from higher education, FGM, pressured marriage, first-cousin marriage.

Religion is a private matter in France. There are plenty of temples, churches and mosques in France where one goes to express one’s faith and take succour. In what other way are muslims not allowed to express their faith in France, because they have certainly built enough mosques. It’s a load of hooey, and is part of the victimhood spiel. More importantly, it’s also part of the longterm plan to overthrow secular France. The drip-drip-drip effect.

Inkanta · 22/08/2016 19:48

"No nation has to agree to promote symbols strongly associated with an oppressive ideology ... France is resisting having the following seen as a norm in French life: women subservient to men (and dressing to confirm they are!), girls discouraged from higher education, FGM, pressured marriage, first-cousin marriage."

Thanks Miriam. You have clocked it.

habenero20 · 23/08/2016 00:00

You don't think any European countries do better at intergration minorities seriously ? Do you live in America ? Even the most ethnically diverse cities are hugely segregated

sure, but that is more a result of economics then racism or xenophobia and that really targets two major groups (AAs and mexican americans).

I am american, but live in the UK. I have travelled over much of europe and am non-white myself (neither african american nor latino). America is definitely misunderstood by europeans.

And, frankly, while america is far from perfect, minorities in america have the lovely protections of the american constitution, where religious minorities, no matter how crazy, aren't told how to live their lives.

How far to you allow religious freedom to be practised

until it affects someone else directly.

Why should any country be well-disposed towards accepting symbols & dress associated with the religious affiliation of the current threat they face, as well as with inequality of gender?

you are aware that france is a catholic country through it's heritage, right? Catholicism is a good sight better than islam in treating women, but it's pretty atrocious. When they tear down the Notre Dame I might think France is serious about keeping religious symbols associated with groups that have supported gender inequality hidden.

White liberals frame this sinister development in terms of free choice and tolerance. Some write letters to this paper: What is the problem? It is all part of the rich diversity of our nation.

no, it's not part of the rich diversity of our nation. that's not why I "write letters". You are confusing me with supporting religious freedom and me supporting religious ideas. I am an atheist and a secularist. I think all religions are backwards, and islam might be at the front of the queue right now.

So, I don't support religious ideas. I don't support islam, and I certainly don't support any of its role in keeping women as second class citizens. And we should certainly have laws that prevent the harming of human by another like FGM. But we shouldn't abandon the ideas that make these western countries great. I don't want to live in a country where the government tells people what to think, where to think it, or what to where while they are thinking it. France can do it, and I am glad I don't live there.

In what other way are muslims not allowed to express their faith in France

need i answer that? the topic of the thread?

SpecialAgentFreyPie · 23/08/2016 00:23

And, frankly, while america is far from perfect, minorities in america have the lovely protections of the american constitution, where religious minorities, no matter how crazy, aren't told how to live their lives.

No, they just shoot them.

I don't agree with the burkini ban, but holding America up as a symbol of tolerance is laughable. I'll encourage my DC (especially my sons) never to go there. Ever.

mathsmum314 · 23/08/2016 00:29

I was wondering today, at the beach. The explanation for wearing a burkini is to keep themselves covered so that men dont rape them. But the only thing a burkini ban does is stop the covering of the hair. Why do muslim women think covering their hair makes them more muslim or more protected from rape. I dont get it. Men dont attack women because their hair it to sexy? So why dont muslims fit in and join the French culture?

habenero20 · 23/08/2016 00:40

I don't agree with the burkini ban, but holding America up as a symbol of tolerance is laughable. I'll encourage my DC (especially my sons) never to go there. Ever.

to hold shooting african americans up as an example of religion intolerance is laughable. it's definitely terrible, but not intolerant.

So why dont muslims fit in and join the French culture?

because people have different cultural comfort zones. I know a lot of non-muslim, non-europeans that are not comfortable with the french way of doing things. women of various backgrounds have different standards for revealing and modest dress.

DioneTheDiabolist · 23/08/2016 01:12

Religion is a private matter.
So is a woman's choice of swimwear at the beach.

The explaination for wearing a burkini is to keep themselves covered so that men don't rape them.

WTAF?Shock Maths, on threads here and across the media burkini wearers have talked about why it is their choice of beachwear. I have not read one who has said it protects them from rape.Shock Where are you getting this bullshit from?

SpecialAgentFreyPie · 23/08/2016 01:41

Dione Never said religious intolerance. And I also never said African-Americans.

But good to know shooting people who aren't white isn't 'intolerant.' What a relief Hmm

mathsmum314 · 23/08/2016 01:47

DioneTheDiabolist

The Quran demands the covering of hair to 'supposedly', keep the sexual appetites of passing men at bay. How else do you describe rape?

Sahih Bukhari (6:321)
Sahih Bukhari (60:282)
Abu Dawud (32:4092)
Abu Dawud (2:641)
Sahih Bukhari (52:250)
Sahih Bukhari (8:395):

SpecialAgentFreyPie · 23/08/2016 01:56

For some reason this makes me keep imagine someone who is going to pull off a hijab, go 'ta-da!' and reveal an 80's perm Blush

MiriamKarlin · 23/08/2016 12:30

In what other way are muslims not allowed to express their faith in France?
Habenero said: need i answer that? the topic of the thread?

I think you are a totally confused person. Not allowing a muslim woman to wear a burkini is NOT interfering with the practice of faith. Give me a break.

If you have read even a little of Targey and Alibhair-Brown you will understand that the burkini is an extension of the burka. The burka even pre-dates Islam. It's a contraption invented by jealous, suspicious men. France does not want to promote symbols strongly associated with a backward oppressive ideology that is out of step with the West by several hundred years.

This issue is actually not about modesty, it is about another way to force a govt to make exceptions for one demographic. If only you could see the full picture you might see the danger we are in, women's rights are not in any way being violated. This is another low-level attempt by Islamists to provoke and make a fuss so that a precedent is set for the future. It is muslim men who are driving this burkini issue.

You seem to be talking about tearing down all faith; you say Notre Dame should be demolished. That is very authoritarian of you; does that include all places of worship? I am talking about a creeping ideology that is attempting to bring down Europe, and our weak spot is our tolerance and willingness to debate.

The ideology of the type of Islam attempting to hijack France and other countries has to be resisted. You seem to want to fight and win a tiny little battle over the burkini, when the rest of us are aware this is just a drop in the ocean in respect of what faces the West. Don't you get it?

You say you do not support anything that contributes to keeping women as second-class citizens. Then why are you promulgating the burkini and attempting to lighten its significance to just a choice in "beachwear", when you know the origins for its existence?

Limer · 23/08/2016 14:10

Great post Miriam

The burkini is just an extension of the already rigorous Islamic dress code for women, whose sole purpose is to clearly label women as good Muslims, bad Muslims or non-Muslims. Given that within Islam, a Muslim woman is inferior to a Muslim man, modern Western society should have no problem at all in banning a dress code that reinforces such illegal inequality. I hope the UK follows France’s example.

Because of these crazy rules, even here in the West Muslim girls and women can’t play sport, can’t dance, can’t swim, can’t do anything that would involve showing more than their faces and hands. This is wrong, it is discriminatory, and it should be outlawed.

Atenco · 23/08/2016 14:38

The only thing the burkini has in common with a burka is its name. Already lots of non-Muslims have said what a wonderful garment it is and how they would happily use it.

A burka is a totally different kettle of fish.

PrettyBotanicals · 23/08/2016 17:24

Already lots of non-Muslims have said what a wonderful garment it is and how they would happily use it

Really?

I don't know a single one who would and I also know 'a lot' of Muslim women who wouldn't wear one at all.

It's a religious symbol.

That's why people are arguing about it.

Wetsuits, rash vests and other non-provocative sun protection garments are available. It is disingenuous in the extreme to pretend otherwise.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 23/08/2016 17:35

A PP insisted that the burkini is effectively a fashion item utilised by muslim women and absolutely a choice they make, rather than something they're forced into

So how does that equate to being "forced off the beach" if for some reason they can't wear it? I appreciate some see this as a complicated issue, but surely a choice is a choice, and if wearers can choose to wear this, they can equally choose not to, if visiting the beach is important and lawmakers have decided to disallow the garment?

sportinguista · 23/08/2016 19:11

I've just quickly googled and found loads of UV protective options which appear to be easy to get, affordable and quite nice. Of course none feature the balaclava attachment but they could be worn with a normal swim cap, which would have the added bonus of keeping your hair dry. These are also made from UV protective fabric which I'm not sure if the burkini is.

Why would these not be suitable?

Burkini banned in France
Burkini banned in France
Burkini banned in France
MiriamKarlin · 23/08/2016 20:02

I think some of you see this issue as if it is a stand-alone situation, or even a feminist matter. Is this lack of critical thinking, or not comprehending how a country’s culture can be usurped from within, not understanding that there is an ideology that wants to, by stealth, over years, tip the French constitution out of the window.

I am gobsmacked to be reading posts from people who I can imagine are the type who would be worrying about interest rates while our cities burn, should we have a serious civil emergency.

Perhaps you do not see danger, you cannot envisage living significantly different lives to what you are living now. Whatever the block in your faulty thinking is it can only aid the unravelling of Western civilisation.

There are parts of Bradford where white women cannot easily travel unless their heads are covered, and ditto a part of the East End. I remember when I was driving in E1 and took a wrong turn. I drove into a street where I was met with total hostility and hard stares by muslim men. This is in my own city; I am a Londoner.

NotExactly · 23/08/2016 21:25

Has anyone seen the images on the DM? They are running a story about a Muslim woman who was relaxing on the beach and who was ordered by several armed police to remove her distinctly summery and nice coloured head garment. It was not burkini, no burka or similar. She was wearing black leggins, a black vest top and a bright turquoise head scarf.

She was forced to strip it off in front of all the other people at the bean and in front of her children. How humiliating. Her dc will not forget this unnecessary humiliation in a rush. It might even open them up for radicalisation.

The images remind me of Saudi Arabia but in reverse. Sad Sad Sad

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 23/08/2016 22:12

No of course she should not have been ordered to strip or threatened in any way

There is going to be those that ignore the ban (though not sure if she was wearing a burkini) and receive a fine

Nice beach probably isn't the place to make such a statement against a ban (if that's what was happening) emotions I am sure are still running very high but that doesn't excuse bullying police or racism

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 23/08/2016 22:13

It is not the same as Saudi though

Saudi you have no choice you have to cover

But the bullying from policemen isn't what I expect to see in Europe

habenero20 · 23/08/2016 23:44

This issue is actually not about modesty, it is about another way to force a govt to make exceptions for one demographic. If only you could see the full picture you might see the danger we are in, women's rights are not in any way being violated.

no. this is about france not understanding modern secularism. This is not about exceptions for one demographic. France has, time and again, targeted other minorities with their laicite and bonkers ideas of secularism. Sikhs and jews cannot wear their religious gear even though neither group fits anyone's definition of not integrating. Those groups are not trying to slowly take over france yet they too have their right restricted.

habenero20 · 23/08/2016 23:45

Why would these not be suitable?

they are. you have a choice. because you live in the UK.

Atenco · 24/08/2016 02:46

MiriamKarlin You obviously would like to see a return to the crusades.