Burkini banned in France

[LifeIsGoodish]

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

Is anyone on here supporting the sale of weapons to Saudi. The ME is unstable we are better having a close relationship with Saudi than not having one at all what other country in the ME could we have close ties to Iraq? Iran? And of course we have business interests and they have oil. I do not agree with Saudi being on the UN Human Rights Council (it's a joke) but having ties with a country is not supporting their violation of human rights

France is supporting their principles these being that men and women are equal and religion is a private matter

Guess it's not that straightforward about Saudi or France for that matter then is it?

On the one hand it's comical on the other it's bloody pathetic that instead of challenging the biggest exporter of islamic extremism and the country with one of the worst records on womens rights by you know not supplying them with arms. France instead chooses to bully Muslim mothers who want to go for a swim on the beach with their children. Cowards and hypocrites.

Well at least we have finally debunked the whole argument that this is for the benefit of Muslim women or its justified because Muslim women cannot wear what they want in Saudi or Iran. Obviously doesn't bother the French government that much what happens to muslim women elsewhere in the world. Or should we say their financial interests are more important then their supposed ideals. You better choose a new tact when you defend this ban now. The advancement of women's rights argument is severely compromised now with regards to this burkini ban.

The French ban of religious wear is in regards to their principles

Religion is a private matter in France

What ban? The hijab is not banned. Nuns habits are not banned. Clerics are not banned from wearing religious dress. A swimsuit is being banned at the beach. It is ridiculous.

The argument can be turned around why are the principles of the French way of life being ignored in favour of religion

that's what we are questioning. the "principles" of the french way of life.

in Saudi Arabia, there is no pretence about what is going on. it's their way or the no way. that, by the way, is something that makes that country undesirable to live in for many people.

In France, however, they talk about liberty and equality, and secularism. I'll assume they also value freedom of expression, and all the other nice liberal principles that make living in a western country nice. These principles, specifically freedom of religion and expression, are found in similar countries, as well as the UN charter on human rights.

these bans are simply inconsistent with those principles. They are illiberal policies for a country that prides itself on its liberalism. of course, france has the right to do whatever it wants (I guess within the bounds of the EU), but we have the right to call them on their expression stomping illiberal bans.

it's also, plainly, counter productive. When secularists mock religion, specifically islam, muslims counter by saying they see a double standard. they see people are free to mock their religion, but they are not free to express it.

Straightforward for me, thanks.

I'm happy to support France making this ban. I think the country is entirely within her rights to insist that her culture is upheld and to enforce that in any way she wishes, including banning non-essential 'choices' of clothing that are seen as politically provocative, in a state of emergency, in a country that has been the object of attacks by extremists in the last 12 months.

I also believe that the human rights abuses being excused in other parts of the world, that go far far beyond anything France could dream of, are appalling.

In my mind, it's that straightforward.

But I've been beaten for not covering so for me it's a very frightening reality and covering is very much aligned with violent repression in my mind. It's not some theoretical abstract interesting liberal Sunday afternoon debate.

It's a harsh reality that many women are beaten for showing skin or hair and the burkini, for me and others, symbolises that repression and misogyny.

It's one if the many reasons I'm grateful to live safely in Europe.

My friend, a British-born muslim who I've known for 22 yrs, had a muslim man - someone who had recently moved 3 doors away from her but still a stranger - shout out that she was not behaving like a muslim woman and should at least cover her head and put some clothes on! She was standing in her own front garden and he was passing by.

However subtle or unsubtle, the pressure is from everywhere.

When secularists mock religion, specifically islam, muslims counter by saying they see a double standard. they see people are free to mock their religion, but they are not free to express it.

They are free to express it - in a mosque and at home. Christians, for example, express their religion in a church and at home, Habanero.

As Europe is now so mixed-up ethnically, can you not see that the best way forward in term of peaceful co-existence is to be SECULAR in public? Can you not see that, or are you simply playing victim again (which appears to be a favourite tactice of Islam).

No one is stopping Muslim people from practising their faith No country in the West prevents the practice of any religion, unlike many countries in MENA.

And for you to accuse France of illiberalism is a travesty. It is clear that Victimhood continues to be the tactic, i.e. poor old us, they dont like us, we have to abide by the rules of the country, why should we?, that is so unfair, etc etc.

PrettyBotanicals, as it is so straight-forward for you, can you tell me if you think it would be acceptable for me (as a white atheist) to be allowed to wear a full body swimsuit to protect me from the sun?
Does the ban of this item of clothing only apply to Muslims?

I believe a burkini, like a hijab, niquab, abaya, etc is a religious symbol.

I've explained why I have concerns about its proliferation in the West.

Im not sure what a full body swimsuit is, but wearing such a thing to protect yourself from sun is completely different to 'choosing' to wear a piece of religious symbolism and disingeneously claiming it is for sun protection.

Yes, however twisty the questions get, there is a disingeneousness about the burkini's existence.

What's wrong with wearing a sunhat for protection, together with a cotton shirt? I do.

So how can we non-muslims support Muslim women in rejecting these extreme clothing (thinking more of the burqa than burkini) which, just as a reminder, are a very recent requirement of a fundamentalist uprising, without outright bans?

I really don't like the way women are becoming the focus and bearing the brunt of anti-islam feeling.

So can I, as a white atheist, wear a burkini because it protects me from the sun and I like them?

You, as a white atheist, have many sun protection options.

There are many many women who would love to have the choice not to.

Why you would choose to wear a burkini seems to me a deliberately provocative action.

I've made my point now. Thanks for the debate.

They are free to express it - in a mosque and at home. Christians, for example, express their religion in a church and at home, Habanero.

so, not really free then. Incidentally, Saudi Arabia also allows this kind of "freedom of religion".

As Europe is now so mixed-up ethnically, can you not see that the best way forward in term of peaceful co-existence is to be SECULAR in public? Can you not see that, or are you simply playing victim again (which appears to be a favourite tactice of Islam).

I am not a muslim. I have no particular love for islam, but I do have a lot of love for the basic freedoms we love in these countries, and I don't want to see them removed.

What do you think? is it working? France has had these policies for quite some time now and I don't see it as working. The policies in the US, Canada and UK seem to work quite a bit better.

I am not playing the victim. Muslims have repeatedly called out on this double standard. They call for anti-blasphemy laws because they see that freedom of expression, especially in France, isn't absolute or near absolute. Why are they wrong? I for one think that everyone should be critical of religion and do it openly, but the flip side of that is that people should be allowed to express their religion.

And for you to accuse France of illiberalism is a travesty.

it's nothing but illiberal. if you take two countries, one that actually respects freedom and expression and religion and another country like france, the former is more liberal. Everyone has more freedom in countries described by the former. As I said, France can do whatever it wants with respect to its laws, but it can't redefine what it means to be liberal.

What's wrong with wearing a sunhat for protection, together with a cotton shirt? I do.

be glad you live in a country that respects YOUR particular way of expressing yourself.

So how can we non-muslims support Muslim women in rejecting these extreme clothing (thinking more of the burqa than burkini) which, just as a reminder, are a very recent requirement of a fundamentalist uprising, without outright bans?

open dialogue and debate have been the traditional methods. Some more provocative methods have been mockery and satire. All methods have been used and continue to be used.

Banning things never works.

Why you would choose to wear a burkini seems to me a deliberately provocative action.
I've made my point now. Thanks for the debate.
Free choice and excellent sun protection actually.
But if you're unable to support your point, I do understand that it doesn't really stand up to any kind of challenge.

I should be clear. I am not accusing france of being illiberal in general. I am accusing france of being illiberal with respect to these particular policies.

Which of these items of clothing should be included in the banned list?
Or does it depend on the religion of the person wearing it?

so, not really free then. Incidentally, Saudi Arabia also allows this kind of "freedom of religion".

In what further way do you think a faith should be expressed, Habanero?

You are playing fast & loose with the meaning of 'expression'. In what way are we not allowed to express themselves. The West has different places for different forms of expression. We have the shower room in which to sing and bathe, I have a kitchen in which to express my cooking creativity, and I have my living area in which I can sit dressed or naked.

if I want to be with people to express my faith, I go to a church. I do not need special clothing to practice religion. Moreover, I am not determined that passerby should know what faith I belong to - that is 'othering' yourself and being deliberately provocative. Why would I want to do that? The ways things are, it is a political provocation.

As to suggesting that SA offers religious freedoms, absolutely not. My husband has been there and says there is little freedom for anyone, religious or otherwise. Perhaps for the great and the good, but the ordinary people are very tightly controlled in their daily lives.

The reason why so many Muslim people like to relocate to the UK is precisely because we have lax dress laws here. To allow burkini and burka to be commonplace is a wrong road to go down. Why should I get disapproving looks by some MENA men in summer? Why should my 13 yr old daughter too? We are both soberly dressed, so what gives? It would be abnormal if I wore a coat in 70F degrees.

And anyway, dress codes in the West are well-established and relate to the culture of a country. We've moved from the pointy hat & veil (Knights of the Round Table times), to sack cloths worn by most in the 1400s, to the Tudors, to the Victorians who would get stiffies at the sight of a female stockinged ankle.

We've done all that, and now we are being drip-fed to accept a 2,000 year old tribal-desert-honour based culture, that sees issues in black & white and whose remedies tend to be whipping, stoning or death.

This is NOT about wimmin not being allowed to express themselves thru dress. This is a small part of a long but concerted effort by the type of people who shot up Paris and Bruxelles, shot hostages, shot Hebdo, shot anyone they wanted dead.

Is this the sort of expression you want?

NeedAnother Imo the burkini which incl encasing the head and ears, should not be worn by anyone. The pink coloured costume on the right is not a burkini. If it is, under modesty rules it would probably not be allowed for most muslim women because it shows off the form, and is therefore immodest.

It is not just a matter of covering up, but also not wearing anything clingy. Most men from that culture would see that as very provocative.

What is wrong with a full one-piece bathing suit cut high front & back?

The mayor of Cannes was clear -

"Beachwear which ostentatiously displays religious affiliation, when France and places of worship are currently the target of terrorist attacks, is liable to create risks of disrupting public order (crowds, scuffles etc) which it is necessary to prevent,"

That seems fair enough to me.

The mood is hardening, and that is to be expected, post Nice, which was only last month - 85 people killed don't forget.

If France is not being as nice and liberal as usual then people will have to get used it and adjust.

85 people were killed by a man in a lorry, not a woman in swimwear!
This will do nothing to reduce terrorism.

I am amazed that people can't see how ridiculous it is that one of the costumes is unacceptable but the others are ok. I actually think that the second one is the most feminine.