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Original poster

Burkini banned in France

732 replies

LifeIsGoodish · 17/08/2016 09:23

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

AngrySadConfused

OP posts:
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6
user1471504509 · 21/08/2016 09:02

Personally I think it looks daft. I have the same opinion with wet suits, hot pants and women wearing bikini tops as actual everyday tops when we have the slightest bit of sun. Although its silly in my eyes it obviously serves a purpose to those wearing it. I don't like it so I simply would not wear it. I DO NOT THINK THIS SHOULD BE A GOVERNMENT ISSUE. Why should the government get to decide what we wear? Why should anyone have any right over what we put on our bodies when it is not harming anyone? Offensive to the eye maybe but its a personal choice. For those of you saying a woman could be forced to wear it, yes its possible but that still has nothing to do with government.
Ban knives, weapons, bombs but Burkinis? This just shows how weak the French Government are.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 21/08/2016 09:30

Who is confusing the burqu and the burkini

The reason why the the burkini was designed is to keep women's modesty the same reason women supposedly wear the burka or niqab seen as a religious requirement by some

In France religious wear that separates you from the rest of society isn't considered acceptable to the French way of being

Of course it's different from Saudi etc no one is forcing a women to wear a burkini but you are forced to cover up in Saudi

There is a choice in France

user1471504509 · 21/08/2016 09:32

Obviously no choice in France when the government bans stuff.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 21/08/2016 09:47

Yes there is choice to choose either you wear a burkini or you don't you can wear other swimwear

In Saudi you have to cover up there is no choice about that

Needabreaknow · 21/08/2016 09:49

How can you wear the burkini in France if it's being banned? That's kind of the point of the whole thread.

user1471504509 · 21/08/2016 09:52

You cant wear it if its banned. The french government has made sure of that. They have taken the choice away.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 21/08/2016 11:47

Sorry should have read you don't wear a burkini but have other choices of swimwear

That is not the same as having to cover up there is no choice there

Yes traditional dress is similar up until covering the face but there is very different ideas on the reasons why women should be modest

PrettyBotanicals · 21/08/2016 11:54

There was an interesting discussion recently about covering being an overtly political statement.

I'm old enough to remember when it was very rare.

I would always cover/dress modestly in the ME as its respectful of local culture. Wearing skimpy clothes or a bikini, though MY culture, though more comfortable for ME, would not be appropriate.

I fail to see why reciprocal cultural respect is so impossible.

I have Muslim friends in France who don't cover and who believe the trend for more extreme covering is a religious and political statement and are very uncomfortable seeing burkhas and burkinis in Europe.

We have a family acquaintance, however, who hopes very much that the trend will continue and that European women will begin to cover modestly in order to 'fit in.'

I urge my nieces to ignore this.

DioneTheDiabolist · 21/08/2016 11:58

Enthusiasm, do you believe that men should legistlate on what women wear? Would you be supportive of a ban on one piece swimsuits and bikini tops for women?

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 21/08/2016 12:08

No

that is why I do not support women should cover for modesty

MusicMania · 21/08/2016 12:19

The french government has made sure of that

Slightly misleading as is the thread title. France is a big country, the burkini has been banned in 2 french seaside resorts, NOT the whole of France.

user1471504509 · 21/08/2016 12:23

Not the whole of france .... yet. Once you start this where do you draw the line?

PrettyBotanicals · 21/08/2016 12:44

But if, as many assert, it is a choice to wear, surely not wearing it in certain places where it's not allowed isn't a big deal at all? It's abiding by the local cultural norms and dress codes.

What's wrong with doing that?

Atenco · 21/08/2016 12:44

Thank you NeedABreak. Brilliant explanations. Clear headed , comprehensive and logical

I'm impressed, I wish I could write so clearly

Needabreaknow · 21/08/2016 12:45

Actually Music someone posted a link that showed that now at least 8 beach towns are banning the burkini.

Yes botanicals there are some islamphobes who believe that any practice of islam is political and actually the most extreme from among them would argue that Islam is not even a religion but a political ideology. Presumably because it makes it more palatable to resttict yhe rights of Muslims if they look at their adherence to islam like being a part of a political party.

I have seen muslim female journalists who do not wear any modest covering being hounded by islamphobic posters in the comments section telling them they should not affiliate themselves at all with the islamic religion and should become ex muslims. Again motivated by extreme fear and hatred of Islam.

There are probably hundreds of different reasons why women choose to dress modestly but again if you truly believe in values like freedom of conscience, thought, religion and expression then that should not make any difference. But it seems some people are more committed to hatred of others then they are to western values and human rights.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 21/08/2016 12:50

Religious freedom

No not something I believe we should accept we are a progressive country religious freedom and progression often clash

PrettyBotanicals · 21/08/2016 12:52

But it seems some people are more committed to hatred of others then they are to western values and human rights.

Absolutely. I was brought up among people like that.

And very few of them, comparatively, live in the West.

Needabreaknow · 21/08/2016 13:07

Well that's good to know you don't believe in a fundamental part of the universal declaration of human rights, the European convention on human rights and the UK human rights act. Freedom of religion is mentioned in all of them. So what's your beef with saudi then if you believe we can pick and choose which human rights we stick to?

That's not surprising botanicals if they dont live in the West that they are not fully committed to western values and human rights. Surprising though someone who is attacking other religions and nations because they believe they do not comply with western values is equally dismissive of them.

PrettyBotanicals · 21/08/2016 13:20

I absolutely believe in western values, it's why I've chosen to live here rather than in a state where religion deems me automatically to be a second class citizen.

My 'beef' is not with Saudi, though I do not see any serious pressure groups making any significant progress against their abhorrent gender apartheid.

It is with those who attempt to deny that covering up is a way of making women invisible, silent and ultimately unimportant.

Totally against what France believes and thus the ban, to me at least, is understandable.

I absolutely believe religion, and all outward symbols thereof, is a private affair and should play no part in public life.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 21/08/2016 13:21

But it's not that straight forward is it

Do I support the right for women to be stoned, do I support the right for a man to have sex with his wife regardless of what she wants, do I support the right for men of the family to have to have ownership over the women of the family, do I support FGM, do I support the wearing of the full veil a barrier to society

No

There is freedom to believe in what you like there isn't freedom to practise your religion as you feel is right

My beef with Saudi. Where do I start the oppression of girls and women, the treatment of non citizens, the support from religious leaders of terrorist groups, the funding of Wahhabism

user1471504509 · 21/08/2016 13:35

Seriously it is a costume women wear to keep themselves covered. It doesnt represent hatred for the west or anything of that magnitude. Wearing a burkini is nothing like FGM. A burkini is harming no one. So why does this concern french government?

PrettyBotanicals · 21/08/2016 13:36

I also think it's double standards to blithely excuse such appalling treatment of women, gay people and the mentally ill as 'it's a theocracy.'

They're also human, and therefore capable of practising human rights.

We are looking in completely the wrong places.

Up in arms over the banning of what many Westerns see as a provocative religious and policial symbol of oppression? Which apparently is worn in complete free will?

Or allowing absolutely brutal and inhuman treatment, including slavery, of women of all nationalities in certain countries.

They do not register the births and deaths of women in KSA.

Surely that deserves more outrage?

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 21/08/2016 13:40

The argument can be turned around why are the principles of the French way of life being ignored in favour of religion

I am not in favour of banning the burkini though I am of banning the full veil but it is not the same as forcing women to cover. In France religion is a personal issue so I can understand why it has been banned

Needabreaknow · 21/08/2016 13:45

That is a horrific list of human rights abuses by Saudi. The reason we don't see any pressure groups making progress in challenging Saudi abuses of human rights is because Saudi is supported and propped up by Western governments. Take France for example. It's support for women's rights the supposed reason for this burkini ban didn't stop it signing a 12 billion dollars deal to supply the Saudi regime with arms.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/francois-hollandes-war-with-isis-wont-stand-in-the-way-of-frances-arms-deals-with-saudi-arabia-a6738546.html

english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/06/24/France-Saudi-Arabia-to-ink-12bln-arms-deal.html

It would pretty hard to challenge a regime that is armed to the teeth by Western arms companies wouldn't it. Can someone explain the logic to me of that. Banning burkini but then supporting governments that abuse women's rights to the extent of Saudi? So either the ban on burkini has nothing to do with advancing women's rights or Hollande and his government are the living breathing definition of the word hypocrite. Or maybe they just believe like some other posters here seem to that human rights only apply when you feel like, where you feel like and to those whom you like.