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Burkini banned in France

732 replies

LifeIsGoodish · 17/08/2016 09:23

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

AngrySadConfused

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PrettyBotanicals · 19/08/2016 18:20

Germany also seeing the light

Ninasimoneinthemorning · 19/08/2016 20:41

It is likely that she is wearing that for a few days before she washes it so black will keep it looking cleaner

Oh how I laughed at this - genuinly did. 😂😂😂

MiriamKarlin · 20/08/2016 14:02

If the bikini, swim costume, sleeveless top, shorts, uncovered hair have no place in those countries where the burka has to be worn, then the burkini has no place in Western society.

We've had our Dark Ages, witch burning, Reformation, Englightenment and I see no reason why we should take a retrograde step to allow burkini to be worn. We would be aligning ourselves with men who believe that a woman showing her hair in public (regardless of style) is a come-on. We should not allow ourselves to step into the crazy pattern of thinking of men who have a very difficult relationship with women.

This is akin to an uncovered table leg being a turn-on for men in early Victorian times, when women were not allowed to show even a stockinged ankle.

DioneTheDiabolist · 20/08/2016 17:24

It's aligning yourself to any man who dictates how much flesh a woman shows at the beach that I have a problem with.

CoteDAzur · 20/08/2016 18:02

Don't be so critical of Mohammad, Dione. He did lots of stuff to improve women's lives, too.

habenero20 · 20/08/2016 21:33

No, still heaps better than Saudi - what with the no driving, men & women stoned to death, gays executed. I've been around Paris and never seen a hanging gallows, Habenero

obviously a hyperbole. the point is that both france and saudi arabia are not neutral with respect to religion: they both tell you the preferred path.

"In God We Trust" on their money, Every president's speech ending with "God bless America", politicians professing faith in their God at every opportunity in a way that would be unthinkable in most of Europe. In which way is it remotely secular?

they should remove the money thing. Obviously.

there is absolutely nothing about secularism that says that political candidates shouldn't profess their faith or lack of it. Absolutely nothing.

what the first amendment says is that government should not favour any particular religion (or lack of) over another. unfortunately, this doesn't always go perfectly, but the idea is perfect. The government shouldn't tell you islam is better, christianity is better or atheism is better. it should be silent and prefer nothing. all religions and lack of religion should expect the same protections.

that leads to nice things like no publicly funded religious schools, but people feel that they can practice their religion as they see fit, the limits being, of course, other people's noses.

habenero20 · 20/08/2016 21:35

So how many of you would be as vociferously supportive of my wearing a bikini on a public beach in Jeddah?

why not? the trouble is that we (westerners) don't have a lot of say in Saudi Arabia. but, the same point remains: the government shouldn't tell women what to wear.

DioneTheDiabolist · 20/08/2016 21:38

He did lots of stuff to improve women's lives too.

That's cool. What have the burkini banning, French mayors done to improve women's lives?

CoteDAzur · 20/08/2016 21:46

Lots, quite possibly. What is your point?

You said your problem was with "aligning yourself to any man who dictates how much flesh a woman shows at the beach". That is Mohammad - the man who said a woman should just show her hands and feet. So you have a problem with Muslim women following Mohammad's (alleged) words, yes?

DioneTheDiabolist · 20/08/2016 21:50

Lots, quite possibly.

Or nothing, quite possibly?

CoteDAzur · 20/08/2016 21:58

You can't answer, can you?

Can you confirm that you have a problem with Muslim women following Mohammad's (alleged) instructions to cover up all but hands & feet? Since you said your problem is with "aligning yourself to any man who dictates how much flesh a woman shows at the beach".

A simple "yes" will do.

Or you can take back your words and accept that you are perfectly fine with a man telling women how much flesh they can show on the beach or elsewhere.

CoteDAzur · 20/08/2016 22:01

While you think of a way to climb out of that hole you dug for yourself...

Menton has joined 8 other beach towns on the French Riviera to ban the burkini

DioneTheDiabolist · 20/08/2016 22:16

I am sure Mohammed was a progressive man of his time, you yourself said that he did lots of stuff to improve women's lives.

I have no problem with Muslim women wearing whatever they like. I have no problem with any woman wearing what they want. I have a big problem with men telling me what I can or can't wear at the beach. I decide what kind of swimsuit I wear, it's none of their business.

Have the burkini banning mayors done lots for women or was that just stuff you made up? If so, why?Confused

CoteDAzur · 20/08/2016 22:25

You can't give a straight answer, can you? Grin

Let me try again:

Muslim women covering their arms & legs are doing so because a man (Mohammad) told them to. You said you had a problem with women aligning themselves with "any man who dictates how much flesh a woman shows".

So you should have a problem with women covering themselves because Mohammad told them to. That is clear as day.

But you don't. Because you are a religious woman and you feel bound to support other religious women in whatever they do because of their religious faith.

That is where we are. Not that you will accept it, but

CoteDAzur · 20/08/2016 22:25

obvious.

jesuisleloup · 20/08/2016 23:11

Muslim women cover themselves because of The Quran not because of Mohammed. He revealed and delivered it. That's how it has been explained to me but I am sure some Sheikh Google will have another view

DioneTheDiabolist · 20/08/2016 23:15

If Mohammed were alive now and legistlating on what women wear I would have a big problem with anyone aligning themselves with him. Just as I do these burkini banning mayors. Mohammed died over a millenium ago and AFAIK hasn't passed any legistlation since.

In 21st century Europe women should be allowed to choose for themselves what they wear. And women should be allowed to enjoy the beach in whatever they feel most comfortable. Legistlating on women's beachwear is a bit fucked up IMHO.Confused

Cote what's so appealing to you about men passing laws regarding women's swimwear?

PrettyBotanicals · 20/08/2016 23:20

why not? the trouble is that we (westerners) don't have a lot of say in Saudi Arabia. but, the same point remains: the government shouldn't tell women what to wear

The thing is, we accept that KSA theocratic dictatorship Government insist on draconian, sexist and medieval dress codes for women which are reinforced with violence and prison.

We could be lobbying and criticising in our media. We don't. Why not?

We are criticising French officials for suggesting that certain dress codes are not acceptable for that country. Why are we not making the same outraged sing and dance about another set of men dictating dress codes?

Are we scared of them?

DioneTheDiabolist · 20/08/2016 23:30

PrettyBotanicals, groups do lobby the government and the media do criticise KSA and Iran and other governments for their treatment of women. But women are not as important as oil and arms and money.Sad

Do you think that men from any country should be able to legistlate on women's beachwear, or is it just white Europeans?

mathsmum314 · 20/08/2016 23:37

Don't be so critical of Mohammad. He did lots of stuff to improve women's lives, too.

Did someone really say this, lol?

habenero20 · 21/08/2016 00:23

So you should have a problem with women covering themselves because Mohammad told them to. That is clear as day.

as long as that is a consensual choice, there isn't anything wrong with. people can believe in whatever ideology they wish to.

the trouble with what france is doing it's not consensual. literally, men are telling woman what to wear. that's bad.

If the bikini, swim costume, sleeveless top, shorts, uncovered hair have no place in those countries where the burka has to be worn, then the burkini has no place in Western society.

we shouldn't be taking our human rights cues from "those countries".

Needabreaknow · 21/08/2016 03:00

Where to start here. So much rubbish spouted on this thread. First off the thread is about the ban on burkinis not burqa. Some posters seem to be generally confused between the two. They sound similar but they really aren't the same. For example:

'Burkini is the Isis uniform for women (paraphrased)' - actually Isis supporters would not be caught dead in a burkini or on a mixed beach for that matter. Google Isis female supporters and look at the image that comes up and then Google burkini. Burkini would be considered very immodest to them and I would probably go as far as to say they would punish any woman found wearing it on a beach. Well at least they are in agreement with France over that.

'Why are all burkinis black (paraphrased)' - actually they aren't all black. Again a basic Web search of the term burkini would show you they come in many different colours and designs. I think you meant burqa but again burqa are not always black it is the abaya that is black.

'There men are forcing them to wear burkini...they have to wear it in MENA countries (paraphrased)' - well actually you cant really blame burkini on muslim men or the middle east. Burkini is a fashion item not a religious dress, that was actually created by an Australian Muslim woman. It didn't originate in the middle east (though they probably had their own modest swimwear) but instead in Australia and was designed to meet the needs of Australian Muslim women.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/08/17/the-surprising-australian-origin-story-of-the-burkini/

It wouldn't be such a big deal that your confusing the two terms if it wasn't for the fact you are making sweeping generalisations about something that you clearly have no knowledge of. Also trying to force other posters who are against the ban on burkini to discuss the burqa is distracting from and dodging the topic. Presumably because you know the burkini ban is nonsensical so trying to move to grounds you feel are easier to defend but which we aren't really discussing.

Needabreaknow · 21/08/2016 03:35

Next the very insulting and infantalizing fallacy that keeps being repeated here which is that Muslim women cannot/do not choose to dress modestly but are instead coerced or conditioned in to it.

Now this is actually breathtaking in its audacity. So basically you are saying that you do not believe that any Muslim woman in the world genuinely believes in their faith. That you believe Muslim men are true believers they choose to follow their religion but Muslim women nope. None of them believe must all be coerced. What basis do you have to make such a claim except your own delusion and hopeful fantasies? Especially considering numerous posters have given examples of women they know whose husbands didn't want them to cover, whose parents didn't cover and even who were not born Muslim but yet all 3 examples chose to dress modestly eventually as adults.

I'm not sure exactly whether I am understanding you correctly as it just seems so ludicrous that someone can honestly believe that something like 750 million Muslim women are just pretending to believe in their religion and are just waiting for their saviours in the West to swoop in and save them from the clutches of all Muslim men who have forced them or brainwashed them to believe. Absurd and patronising.

Moving on this idea that only Muslim women are required to dress modestly or that it was a man (Muhammed) who told women to dress modestly. Well actually Jesuis has it right that it is the Quran that advises women and men actually to dress modestly. This is important becayse according to muslim belief the Quran is the divine word of God so even though for you it is a man's dictates for Muslim women who dress midestly by choice this is a divine command from God which is no different to praying, fasting, giving charity etc.

In fact the Quran not only talks about women dressing modestly but tells men to do so before it does women. It also commands Muslim men to 'lower their gaze' (basically not to ogle women) before it mentions women's dress which has been explained by some scholars to mean that regardless of a woman's dress a man should not ogle or stare at her.

Now this may not be the opinion you hear coming out of countries like Saudi and Isis held Syria or by others who follow their ideology. However, it is a very valid, more logical and popular interpretation that men are responsible for their own sexual responses which they are expected to control according to the Quran. Also it is not up to women to protect them from being attracted to them as the advice to women to dress modestly is mentioned after the reference to men suggesting that it is not linked i.e men have to dress modestly and lower their gaze even if women around them are not dressed modestly.

Needabreaknow · 21/08/2016 04:34

Finally the point about France being able to restrict the clothing of women because some middle eastern countries do. Well first off be specific that it is Saudi and Iran that police women's dress. You can find women not wearing burqa/abaya or hijab in other middle eastern countries such as Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt, UAE, Jordan etc. You can even find women in bikini in some of these countries.

Secondly Saudi and Iran are theocracies. They don't pretend to be shining beacons of human rights, lecturing other countries about violations to human rights. France on the other hand parades itself as a more civilised country and one that respects human rights. I do not expect it to be emulating countries like Saudi and Iran which dictate what women can and can't wear or compromising the rights of women to freedom of thought, conscience and religion.

Also France is a secular country. According to the national secular society of the UK, secularism is;

^a principle that involves two basic propositions. The first is the strict separation of the state from religious institutions. The second is that people of different religions and beliefs are EQUAL before the law.

Separation of religion from state
The separation of religion and state is the foundation of secularism. It ensures that religious groups don't interfere in affairs of state, and MAKES SURE THE STATE DOESNT INTERFERE IN RELIGIOUS AFFAIRS^

Now from various statements made by the French mayors and also by posters here this is very much an interference in religious affairs. They don't like the beliefs of Muslims or the behaviour of Muslim men so are passing laws to make it difficult for Muslim women specifically who cover (so not being equal) to access facilities and also to pressure them to abandon an aspect of their religion which they don't like so interfering in religious affairs. So it's not a shining example of human rights nor is it of secularism as it's burkini bans are very far from being neutral.

Because of this I do not see people's approval for the burkini ban as being supportive of Muslim women or motivated by a desire to help Muslim women who are forced to dress modestly in other countries. Taking rights away from one group of women to dress how they like won't give other women the right to dress how they like and is equally oppressive. No this is very much motivated by a dislike and fear of Islam (many posters have mentioned their anger at the behaviour of Muslim men and also things like terrorism which are hardly connected to modest swimwear). It is unjust, abhorrent and counter productive to use or punish Muslim women in an ideological war with extremist interpretations of Islam and in fact does a huge harm to the advancement of women's rights to bring in laws controlling what women can and can't wear.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 21/08/2016 08:33

Thank you NeedABreak. Brilliant explanations. Clear headed , comprehensive and logical.