Burkini banned in France

[LifeIsGoodish]

Instead of teaching people to behave with respect to each other.

Burkini banned in France

And China thinking about it. Lots of covered up people there.

Miriam why do you think people wear hats in the summer? To keep warm or because it keeps the sun off them? I actually feel quite ill in full sun without something on my head. I wouldn't want to wear a full abaya in summer. But covered is better for me.

I wonder if France is banning áo dài as well. For evilly covering women up. Or is it just Muslim women who have to strip or fuck off?

in Morocco you see Western dress and burkas on women; and on men Western dress and djellabas. No one giving anyone else shit about it.

That's good, MrsTerry. So why are women 'given shit' here in England? I've seen it for myself.

Some are, and that is dreadful, and some aren't. We should handle it the way we should handle any abuse towards women. Not criminalise women for doing something that, according to you, is out of their choice anyway.

No one is criticising hats.
A hat is worn to keep sun from eyes or face and is cooling. It does not enclose the head & ears and retain heat when you need to be cool.

I put a scarf on if I forget my hat. It still works.

And, once again because no one has explained, how is the solution banning burkinis?

'And China thinking about it. Lots of covered up people there.'

Yes but that kind of covering up isn't for modesty reasons is it. The purpose of the Burka and burkini is female modesty, and Burkas are generally made of black material and look hot to me in the height of summer.

Your forgetting that England went down the route of multi-multiculturalism. France did not, it only allows one culture ie the french (secular) one and it passes laws to enforce it. eg it bans words like: email, blog, supermodel, take-away, chewing gum, parking, weekend, low-cost airline, hash tag... all to protect the French culture. They dont just target Muslims.

Yes but that kind of covering up isn't for modesty reasons is it. No, it's because women should be pale skinned and dark skin is undesirable. Soooooo much better and more liberated. Classist, racist and sexist... How do they manage it?

I suppose you loathe Viet Nam as well, with all the hats, scarves and gloves in the Summer?

You are picking out articles of clothing or accessories which have nothing to do with what is being discussed.

The Vietnamese women have always worn hats because the majority of work is still physical, or at least outdoors. They keep cool by NOT enveloping themselves in yards of fabric, but rather wear cotton tops, cropped trousers and open footwear.

Mathsmum - Precisely. The French are still mostly Catholic. They attend church whenever they want to and observe the Saint days. BUT their view is that no one should know what your religion is from your dress, religious jewellery or anything else.

I think that is eminently equal and commonsensical. Why should anyone know what faith I belong to, if any? What for?

Lao? Quite heavy material enclosed sarongs. And long, tight sleeves frequently. Hassidic Jewish people?

I'm just trying to show that different cultures have different standards and they are encouraged and enforced differently.

People's problem is that it is Islam. Does the Pope have to undress when he visits Hollande?

Mrs Terry, I think you hv lost the thread. Sarong fabric does not cover head & ears. The Hassidic women do not hide themselves under metres of fabric, or half-hide their faces.

Religious dress for the Pope, imams, priests of church and temple are not worn once they are away from public gaze. Only for the duration of religious service and festivals.

I am still waiting to hear from women of the Muslim faith only what they consider to be immodest dress, and why.

Does your view on immodest dress change depending on which country you are living in? Does your view change depending on the circumstances, i.e. being at work, going to a concert, etc?

I cannot believe people are defending such nonsense. The Arundhati Roy quote is all that needs to be said.

I also cannot believe people are using the incredibly dangerous argument that female citizens of one country (France) should have their rights removed because of the behaviour of the governments in other countries.

That is a very dubious argument to make. I'm sure those making it feel safe from any possible impact because they aren't Muslim women.

However, don't be surprised if that argument is in future adopted for a cause that does affect your rights.

It's bizzarre to supposed feminists arguing that Muslim women's bodies are public property and therefore they should be denied the rights of other women. It's also weird that there is no deeper analysis of why it is Western men who are oh-so-keen on these sorts of bans.

miriam lost the thread? Huh?

As long as everyone can't tell me how one set of men telling women what they can't wear is the solution to another set of men telling women what to wear (according to your theory) I have won. It's a Pyrrhic victory though. Because women are still constantly policed in their dress by men.

"people are using the incredibly dangerous argument that female citizens of one country (France) should have their rights removed "

• Not sure what rights your referring to. Wearing a burkini is not one of the ECHR's list of human rights?

Women in Vietnam and many other parts of SE Asia like to have pale skin, it is considered more attractive, that you maybe from a wealthier background (so shall hopefully find a suitable wealthy partner) being fair is considered more desirable

And of course this is done for men

MrsTerryPratchett - politicians in France are elected representatives of the public and they are around 50% female. The majority of women in France support the burqa ban in France. So how do you turn this into a set of men telling women they cant wear burkinies?

mathsmum314
I'm not sure about support for the burkini ban. From friends in France and reported in the BBC (online) there's a lot of opposition to the burkini ban. French politics is notoriously chauvinist and female politicians have complained about being subjected to denigrating and dismissive comments from their male colleagues. I'll try to dig out a link but I recall there was quite a bit of debate on this a couple of years ago. we see France as all liberte, egalite, fraternite but this is more for some than others (men in general).

Internalized sexism is still sexism. And we are taking about the recent bans in Cannes and Corsica aren't we? The mayors were male.

Men telling women? Nothing to do with men wanting to ogle women’s bodies; don’t make this about that.

Corsica belongs to France and the former is extending the French republican view which is not to deliberately make yourself so different in attitude that you are effectively declaring separatism and apartheid.

If I were to wear a cross or star of david on the outside of my blouse, I would be signalling that I want everyone to know that I am of a faith. Why would I want passersby to know ….. for what reason? Similarly with dress that runs contrary to French life & culture, and now the burkini. As another poster said upthread, their culture and ethos are very important to French people, and they go out of their way to protect that.

What's wrong with remaining modest, being on the beach, enjoying a swim in a swimming costume as per the culture of the country you have moved to? In England there was a rucus recently about a public swimming pool being temporarily segregated for Muslim women only. This trend is not helpful for co-existence, and trashing the host culture by implication is exceptionally ill-mannered.

Typing on ancient phone- here's a link:
www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/13/we-can-no-longer-stay-silent-fury-erupts-over-sexism-in-french-politics

Internalized sexism is still sexism. The mayors were male.

What a stretch. Are you serious!!? More like dictatorial behaviour by the menfolk who demand their women to wear burkinis.

"trashing the host culture"

Is French culture really so vulnerable that some women wearing wetsuits with skirts (which is all a burkini basically is), is trashing it?

How odd that "oppressed Muslim women" can be so powerful just by wearing a particular swimsuit.

Also, these women are not "hosted" by France, they are generally born and bred French citizens, why should they be treated as second class citizens? Are you arguing that people who are not ethnically white are only "hosted" in France as opposed truly belonging there?

Or do you believe that only Christians or atheists truly belong in France?

Do you think we all live with sexism? Because I do and after that it's a matter of degrees. Saying that policing women's dress one way is OK and the other isn't is stupid.

And go ahead and wear a cross or a Star of David. It will make no difference to me and I certainly don't want people to either be made to wear one or made not to wear one.

France is also one of the few places I have wines add and stopped a public act of domestic violence. It's not a shining light of feminism.