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Another terrorist attack

342 replies

Kreeshsheesh · 26/07/2016 10:50

Priest has been murdered. Apparently IS had threatened to target churches in France.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36892785

OP posts:
IPityThePontipines · 26/07/2016 22:51

Cuboidal - you do realise he was born and raised in France. He's French.

According to news reports "A family friend said Kermiche's sister is a doctor while his mother is a professor.
His family alerted authorities to his radicalism to try to stop him from going to Syria."

fourmummy · 26/07/2016 23:06

And that the audience are kept in their seats at gunpoint and forced to listen against their will, presumably? Of course not, but they will keep sitting, or leave, if the conditions are made available that make it OK for people to pick and choose what they listen to or not. We all encounter hate, idiotic ideas, stuff and nonsense. It's a part of all of our lives. I wonder if the difference is that I, for example, know that I am completely free to believe what I want, listen to what I want and walk away when I want. That has been my social conditioning. Are others given these choices or do they grow up under layers and layers of pressure to conform to certain ideas? If young Muslims were completely free to walk out or to go next door and listen to an atheist, or even to debate with the imam, how many would take up these opportunities?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 26/07/2016 23:28

If young Muslims were completely free to walk out or to go next door and listen to an atheist, or even to debate with the imam, how many would take up these opportunities?

A very valid point ...

CuboidalSlipshoddy · 26/07/2016 23:33

If young Muslims were completely free to walk out or to go next door and listen to an atheist,

Who's stopping them?

fourmummy · 26/07/2016 23:35

Who's stopping them? Their socialisation?

moonstruckl8 · 26/07/2016 23:40

i get why people scoff at Islam being 'the religion of peace', i would too. if i wasnt muslim and i had no knowledge of the Quran except through the prism of what the extremists on both sides say? id think the same thing. but it isnt the case that ISIS and their ilk are the 100percenters as they portray of themselves. theyre the aberration and the abomination.

on those using alienation from society as an excuse for causing havoc:

"Indeed, those whom the angels take [in death] while wronging themselves - [the angels] will say, "In what [condition] were you?" They will say, "We were oppressed in the land." The angels will say, "Was not the earth of Allah spacious [enough] for you to emigrate therein?" For those, their refuge is Hell - and evil it is as a destination." [4:97]

on protection of places of worship

"[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is God." And were it not that God checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of God is much mentioned. And God will surely support those who support Him...'' [22:40]

on the order not to ridicule other peoples religions:

''Do not insult those whom they worship besides God, lest they insult God in anger without knowing it...'' (6:108)

on patience through ridicule of our religion:

"And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, ‘Peace!’ (salaam)." [25:63]

"And when they hear vain talk, they turn away there from and say: ‘to us our deeds, and to you yours; peace (Salaams) be to you: we Seek not the ignorant." [28:55]

"And [they are] those who do not testify to falsehood, and when they pass near ill speech, they pass by with dignity." [25:72]

"And it has already been revealed to you in the Book (this Quran) that when you hear the Verses of Allah being denied and mocked at, then sit not with them, until they engage in a talk other than that..." [4:140]

"And when you (Muhammad SAW) see those who engage in a false conversation about Our Verses by mocking at them, stay away from them till they turn to another topic..." [6:68]

no where in the Quran does it say to kill people muslim or non muslim who mock the religion. it even says wish them 'salaam', move away until they change the topic etc..

on freedom in religion:

"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. " (2:256)

"Had your Lord willed, all those on earth would have believed altogether. Would you then (O Muhammad), compel people, so that they become believers?" (10:99)

''Had God willed, they would not have taken others besides Him in worship. And We have not made you a watcher over them nor are you set over them to dispose of their affairs." (6:107)

"Say: it is the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve" (18:29)

"Verily, this is an admonition, therefore whosoever will, let him take a Path to His Lord" (73:19)

"Say: I ask of you no reward for this, save that whosoever will may choose a way unto his Lord." (25:57)

"Nay, but verily it (the Quran) is an Admonishment, So let whosoever will pay heed to it," (80:11-12)

the Quran on innocence:

""And no soul shall bear the burden of sin of another, and if a soul heavily laden with sin calls someone else to bear its sins, nothing of it will be lifted even though he be near of kin." [35:18]

on not killing innocent life

"whoever kills a soul not in retaliation of murder or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. " [5:32]

on justice

"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as just witnesses; and let not the enmity and hatred of others allow you to avoid justice. Be just: that is closer to piety; and fear Allah. Indeed, Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do." [5:8]

"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do." [4:135]

CuboidalSlipshoddy · 26/07/2016 23:42

Their socialisation?

But I thought this was all the fault of the Internet? You're not surely daring to suggest that their parents and "the community" might have anything to do with the problem? Who else might be causing this "socialisation"?

Google Translate makes a rather bad job of it presumably as it's Swiss French, but this is an interview with the boy's mother. Oddly, she appears to think it's everyone else's fault (at this point he was just trying to join ISIS, and hadn't actually killed anyone):

www.tdg.ch/geneve/actu-genevoise/jeune-francais-radicalise-arrete-aeroport-geneve/story/11754052

Just5minswithDacre · 26/07/2016 23:45

Thanks moon. Good to see a bit of non-alarmist Qur'an quoting for a change.

moonstruckl8 · 26/07/2016 23:55

thanks dacre, one of those verses i put down was even quoted by our Prime Minister Teresa May last week in her speech on ISIS:

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 26/07/2016 23:57

Why post anything of the Koran either it's to be read as a whole or not those verses posted are as irrelevant as the violent verses if the argument is its not a true reflection

The issue is not snipets of the Koran is that an ideology based on Islam and the Koran is behind Islamic terrorism that is attracting many young Muslims to support Isis and carry out attacks

CuboidalSlipshoddy · 27/07/2016 00:04

no where in the Quran does it say to kill people muslim or non muslim who mock the religion

Odd, then, that so many Muslims appear not to realise this. Why did major Muslim organisations in the UK jump to defend the idea of killing Salman Rushdie? Why, indeed, did so many Muslims race into the streets to demand the same, all over the world? Are they all wrong about Islam, until put right by you and a few brave souls who know the truth? Why didn't, say, the MCB point to the same quotes as you and say "now, steady on, this is all getting a bit out of hand?"

Just5minswithDacre · 27/07/2016 00:20

Odd, then, that so many Muslims appear not to realise this. Why did major Muslim organisations in the UK jump to defend the idea of killing Salman Rushdie? Why, indeed, did so many Muslims race into the streets to demand the same, all over the world?

What do you mean 'so many'?

All the Muslims I know are selling newspapers, devising Marketing campaigns, doing the school run or fixing teeth the same as they always did.

I haven't noticed large numbers of them jacking it all in to take up murder instead Confused

moonstruckl8 · 27/07/2016 00:22

dear enthusiasm i wish that when the war verses are quoted on mumsnet people would also say 'context is needed' but they are put up unchallenged. mistranslated, incomplete, out of context etc and thats all anybody thinks the Quran says on such issues. I wanted to have it on record why the majority of muslims who abhor terrorism have the textual back up from the Quran to do so.

as for punishment for mocking the faith cuboidal, the lay muslim is told throughout the Quran to ignore ridicule, not to provoke others by mocking their faith, respond with peace, stay away until there is a change of topic. there is nowhere in the book that calls for earthly punishment either for that or even apostasy. the Quran in several places says that religion is not by compulsion, even addressing Muhammad himself ''would you then (o Muhammad)compel people to become believers?'' (10:99). the rhetoric of the Quran is 'God will deal with them', not you the human. ''...and you have not been appointed as a watcher over them, nor are you the disposer of their affairs...'' (6:107)
i give the verses and references so others can look them up and check through and see which show the 'spirit' of the book, all qurans throughout the world are the same with the same content and verse orders whatever the denomination sunni or shia.

Just5minswithDacre · 27/07/2016 00:23

I'm starting to grudgingly warm to TM moon. She grasps a few things and has a certain style I wouldn't expect her to.

Why post anything of the Koran either it's to be read as a whole or not those verses posted are as irrelevant as the violent verses if the argument is its not a true reflection

You can say the same about the Bible enthusiasm. Anyone will find a quote in any scripture to support anything, if they want. They're not modern texts written to modern mores. But there's plenty to be said in evening up the balance of what is quoted from them.

IPityThePontipines · 27/07/2016 00:26

I don't know why they didn't Cuboid.There, that's my answer.

Are all Muslims everywhere still to be held accountable for those actions of some nearly 30 years ago?

Is it that you think the likes of Moon and myself are liars?

Do you think that all Muslims secretly love IS?

Would you like us all to be punished for their actions?

I haven't come on this thread to sneer or belittle, but to talk about a serious issue in a serious manner.

Several of the recent IS killers didn't attend the mosque at all, therefore it's reasonable to assume that their radicalisation occurred elsewhere. I'm not sure why you struggle with this.

If they all went to X masjid, it would make life very easy, just close X masjid. However, it would appear that things are not that straightforward and I imagine that the police and intelligence services are spending a great deal of time investigating IS recruitment and funding networks.

CuboidalSlipshoddy · 27/07/2016 00:28

there is nowhere in the book that calls for earthly punishment either for that or even apostasy.

It's a shame your co-religionists don't appear to agree.

islamqa.info/en/20327

www.call-to-monotheism.com/of_course_apostates_should_be_killed

sheikyermami.com/apostasy-whoever-changes-his-islamic-religion-kill-him/

Just5minswithDacre · 27/07/2016 00:32

OMG this planet is doomed if we all keep talking at each other like this.

Cuboid you do realise that is like finding websites by southern US fundamentalist Christians and throwing them at a British Anglican sneering "there, this is your lot"?

CuboidalSlipshoddy · 27/07/2016 00:37

Are all Muslims everywhere still to be held accountable for those actions of some nearly 30 years ago?

Do you think Salman Rushdie would be safe were he to walk through Tower Hamlets without a heavy police guard?

moonstruckl8 · 27/07/2016 00:45

IV read threw all those links you posted cuboid, and still there are no references from the Quran about punishment for apostasy or mocking the faith. It is derided, we are told God turns away from such people, but nowhere is permission given to punish in the worldly human realm. And the plethora of Quranic verses on this subject override the hadith

CuboidalSlipshoddy · 27/07/2016 00:46

And the plethora of Quranic verses on this subject override the hadith

So apostates are safe throughout the Muslim world?

MistressMia · 27/07/2016 00:49

I've avoided posting on this thread because it's just the same old, same old. Excuses, denial and apologia.

However very briefly, speaking of context, the very first verse posted above:

Indeed, those whom the angels take [in death] while wronging themselves - [the angels] will say, "In what [condition] were you?" They will say, "We were oppressed in the land." The angels will say, "Was not the earth of Allah spacious [enough] for you to emigrate therein?" For those, their refuge is Hell - and evil it is as a destination." [4:97]

The context is that this verse was revealed at the time of the Battle of Badr. A battle that Muhammed undertook against the Meccan Pagans who had rejected and scorned him.

In this verse Allah is chiding those Meccan muslims who didn't emigrate with Muhammed to Medina and join in the subsequent battle against the non-muslims.

They will say, "We were oppressed in the land." The angels will say, "Was not the earth of Allah spacious [enough] for you to emigrate therein?

i.e. He is rebuking them for not partaking in the Jihad

For those, their refuge is Hell - and evil it is as a destination." [4:97]

www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=615&Itemid=59#1

FFS this backs up the argument that offensive Jihad is obligatory on muslims & that those who do not join in are in the wrong and to be punished.......and it is why the Salafi-jihadists have no compunction in killing all those moderate muslims who do not assist the jihad effort.

Too tired to deal with all the other verses now.

All falls on deaf ears anyway.

IPityThePontipines · 27/07/2016 00:50

Thanks Just, but I don't think Cuboid's listening.

Cuboid's getting to tell some Muslims directly what awful people they are. She can't do it face to face, so on here is a good substitute.

It's not the first time a posters done that on a thread and it won't be the last.

CuboidalSlipshoddy · 27/07/2016 00:57

Do you think that all Muslims secretly love IS?

No. It's hardly a small problem, however:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/09/manchester-twins-sisters-salma-zahra-halane-syria-threat

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31612666

The latter case was particularly worrying, as one of the fathers, apparently a congenital liar, claimed (to parliament, in fact) to know nothing of extremism until it turned out that he was a regular at Anjem Choudary's flying circus, and took his children along when he couldn't get a babysitter. How odd, then, that his daughter turned out like she did.

moonstruckl8 · 27/07/2016 00:59

Actually mistress, that verse is widely used for why migration is better than staying an putting up with oppression. Also by imams to say to muslims that it is better to get out of a bad situation/move away from it then to stay and themselves commit oppression/wrongdoing. Eg Rather than be a soldier in an army and say 'they told me to do it', you leave and go into exile.

It was also a verse that helped me see that though my father was racially picked on at work it didn't give him the right to go home and pick on his wife and kids because of his anger. 'Wasnt God's earth wide enough?'. That he should have instead, changed jobs or simply quit. So it is also said to youngsters who want to cause havoc and take out their aged on others and say 'because I was bullied'. The Quran doesn't give an excuse for that.

Just5minswithDacre · 27/07/2016 01:00

Some of you have some impressive patience.

I tend to hope, when I read some threads, that certain posters are living in isolated crofts in the Outer Hebrides and that's why they view certain demographics in such weird ways ( not just Muslims) . But there are too many of them for that Sad

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