Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

A plea to all Remainers!

164 replies

GardenBirdie · 13/07/2016 14:01

We need to revive this petition, and quickly. It will be debated, in the spotlight, by MPs on September 5 and it's our best chance - through massive numbers, even if the debate is technically a formality - to show that those of us who wanted to remain in Europe are still here, and must be heard. Since the referendum, we've been all but ignored. Please, please, share this as widely as possible. ‪#18MillionNames - The new guard need to know we have to be listened to; We CAN make a difference. ow.ly/Ya7M302csoi

OP posts:
LurkingHusband · 14/07/2016 12:21

Where is the car crash that some people keep talking about? Life is moving forward as normal.

You know of the boiling frog phenomenon ?

LurkingHusband · 14/07/2016 12:25

Also, why call it 'complaining'? Why not 'campaigning'?

Since the referendum, people who voted will have died, and people who were unable to vote now can.

The population that is offered Brexit, (whenever that maybe) could be sufficiently different to todays population that the majority want to remain.

Does anyone recall a Yes Minister episode where Jim Hacker had to take delivery of a massive petition he had organised when in opposition ...

Bernard : "What should I do minister ? Lose it, or file it ?"
Hacker : "I don't care, as long as I never see it again !"
Bernard : "In that case I'll file it minister"

peachpudding · 14/07/2016 12:30

LurkingHusband, where is there any factual evidence of that? Isn't that just fear of the unknown, scare stories, project fear?
Why is it not far more likely we will be more prosperous outside the stranglehold the EU had on us?

KarlosKKrinkelbeim · 14/07/2016 12:30

the belief expressed by Leave voters that leaving the EU is simple merely demonstrates how they have no comprehension at all of what they have voted for. For 40+ years we have built our legal, political and economic foundations on a certain basis. Leaving means chopping a huge chunk of that away. How could that ever be simple? Have you any idea how many conclaves of lawyers and others there are meeting all over this country every day trying to work out what might happen, what the options are, what each might mean for the people they are trying to advise, who want to know how they can keep their businesses going and attract the global talent they need to succeed? Do we accept free movement or not? do we aim to stay in the single market or not? Do we continue with the EU laws enshrined in our own domestic system in place or do we repeal all, or some of them (and if only some which ones)?
there are as many flavours of brexit as there are dickheads who voted for it. If any of them could articulate which one it is they voted for I might think they were worth listening to. trouble is they wouldn't agree.

disappoint15 · 14/07/2016 12:49

I'm very frustrated with the idea that democracy means accepting one vote and shutting up. And indeed that within a democracy the only thing that matters is numbers. We're not undemocratic if we want to protest. Part of our democratic right is to continue to campaign and lobby. I signed the petition to have a second referendum not because I thought that we should hold another ballot, but because I wanted to show the depth of my feeling and to add my voice to the weight of protest. I wrote to my MP even though I knew he was a Eurosceptic because he represents a staunchly Remain constituency.

Within government, at the moment, lots of decisions are made 'undemocratically' - only last week the ex-Education Secretary (one person) overturned a decision made by a Parliamentary Select Committee (11 people.)

LurkingHusband · 14/07/2016 12:54

LurkingHusband, where is there any factual evidence of that?

No real point bothering with facts now. Whose facts, anyway ?

^Isn't that just fear of the unknown, scare stories, project fear?
Why is it not far more likely we will be more prosperous outside the stranglehold the EU had on us?^

Since I haven't claimed we will be more prosperous outside the stranglehold the EU had on us I don't really feel a need to research it. You convince me.

However, given how hard the most vulnerable in society are being shat on already, and given the form the Tories have for starting any cost cutting with them before moving up the ladder, the real question is whether it's right, fair or just that they should have to pay the price of this "blip" in order that the more wealthy in society can have jam tomorrow ?

whenwillsummercome · 14/07/2016 13:03

Peachpudding - I (think I) know what you are saying in that because we have FPP, in mass majority constituencies, it's never likely that your vote will make any difference either way. In marginal seats that's not the case. But BOTH PR and FPP are democratic, and BOTH are based on 'the people's voice' as you call it. FPP in, by some measures, less liable to be influenced by politicians than PR (in PR systems the electorate doesn't get to pick - or sometimes even to know the order in which candidates are placed by their parties, so there's a huge incentive for candidates to brown-nose politically, and not to bother so much with the electorate).

Like others have said, I didn't sign that petition thinking anything much would happen. I signed it to show that I very strongly support Remain, and think it is appalling that there was no threshold vote.

What would people be saying if there had been one vote in it: 17 million on one side, 17 million and one on the other?

And as for Brexit means Brexit, I stick firmly by what I've said. The Brexit promise is that we STOP immigration, STOP paying so much to the EU, STOP being bound by EU regulation, and KEEP access to the single market. THAT WAS THE MANIFESTO, in so much as there was one - so, go implement it! No shirking, and no compromises please! And if you can't, then you need to go back to the country and say -- here's what we CAN get - is that ok?? And if people still say yes, then that's fine. At least we'll know what we're getting, more or less.

JudyCoolibar · 14/07/2016 15:01

Where is the car crash that some people keep talking about? Life is moving forward as normal.

You may not have noticed, but we're still in the EU. The car crash people are worrying about is what happens if or when we trigger article 50 and when leaving actually takes effect.

But even despite that, life isn't moving forward as normal. People are losing their jobs directly as a result, the pound has plummetted, businesses are making plans to move out, and people are suffering racist attacks many more racists attacks than they were before. Is that normal so far as you are concerned?

peachpudding · 14/07/2016 15:02

LurkingHusband, since you have admitted you have no factual reasons to believe your claims then I agree and am happy to give TM time to show us a more prosperous country outside the EU.

whenwillsummercome, When you go back to the people with the terms of Brexit, what happens if they say No? do we go back to the EU and try again? What do you think the EU will do if they know the public have to ratify any terms before we leave? Do we get stuck in limbo wanting to leave but not able to? Isn't that the worse of all worlds?

JudyCoolibar · 14/07/2016 15:04

Why is it not far more likely we will be more prosperous outside the stranglehold the EU had on us?

The really interesting question is why some people think that that is far more likely. It's one I keep asking and never get an answer. It would be lovely if someone would answer now, producing some facts and evidence to support what they say.

peachpudding · 14/07/2016 16:28

Judy, I say far more likely in comparison to the claim that leaving will be a car crash. We have no way to know either way and yet people claim both. I was on the fence until the very last second, I honestly believed it wont in the medium term make much difference either way. I dont think anyone was hiding the facts, there just wasn't any to share.

However in the long term I think our children's future will be better if they lived in a self governing democracy. So I voted leave and am now excited by it.

Mooingcow · 14/07/2016 16:30

I'm struck, reading these threads, by the similarity between those who believed (particularly around the time of the GE) uncontrolled immigration was changing their home towns beyond recognition (maybe, they didn't vote for it, they perceive a worse future for themselves and their families as a result)

And

Remainers who believe a Leave Vote will change their country beyond recognition (maybe, they didn't vote for it, they perceive a worse future for themselves and their families as a result).

There doesn't seem to have been much listening on either side and I've certainly seen some agressive make-calling to close down both discussions.

There are valid truths, supposition, urban myth and entrenched feelings on both arguments.

Is one side feeling any more sympathy towards the other as a result? I've been trying to listen more as I would like to understand the thinking that went into all votes.

Just a thought. As you were.Cake

twofingerstoGideon · 14/07/2016 17:51

Remainers who believe a Leave Vote will change their country beyond recognition (maybe, they didn't vote for it, they perceive a worse future for themselves and their families as a result).
Remainers are now being positioned as fearful, timid, risk-averse, change-averse, unimaginative etc. (I have seen us described as all of these things on various threads.) It's the old 'project fear' rhetoric.
I don't perceive a worse future, or believe 'urban myths', rather I believe we are/will be worse off because: (a) prior to the vote 'experts' generally came down on the remain side. These experts were scientists, economists, environmentalists, social scientists, academics, etc. We were told not to trust them (project fear again), (b) the vote has exposed some very nasty racist sentiments. This is definitely 'worse' for the country and the individuals affected (not a 'perception') and (c) Colleagues of mine are already being affected by Brexit and it hasn't even happened yet (reality as opposed to 'perception').

whenwillsummercome · 14/07/2016 22:05

Peach pudding: what I'm saying is that if negotiators can't get what the Leave voters wanted (full control of immigration, full access etc. etc.) then, without having triggered Article 50, there should be a referendum saying: Here's the deal we can get
Here are the terms: we pay this, we get this, or we get out completely and get none of it, or we stay.

That way people at the very least know what they are voting for - 3 concrete options.

But I'm afraid it's all pie in the sky - that's not what's going to happen.

I think we'll be stuck. I think there's no way that the politicians and the civil service and the experts and all the very many people, political and otherwise, who run our country, will be able to make themselves do that which is utterly, utterly, against our economic interests. And because that (going against our economic interests) is what has been voted for, they won't NOT be able to do it either.

"Do we get stuck in limbo wanting to leave but not able to? Isn't that the worse of all worlds?"
YES - and that's what I think is going to happen - apart from the fact that the great majority of the people who actually have to extract us, really really really think it's a bad idea and DON'T want it at all. Which leaves us in a disastrous political position...

peachpudding · 14/07/2016 23:49

whenwillsummercome, a referendum with 3 options? Seriously the winning option could have a minority of votes. Are you sane?

And then: You can negotiate a deal before triggering article 50, duh!

Way to ham string the Brexit negotiators... Its almost like you want them to fail.

annandale · 15/07/2016 01:50

I have to say my overwhelming feeling about the whole debacle is we should return to proper representative democracy and never, ever have a referendum again.

I also went off PR when I was about 20 and since PR meant that I was represented in the EU by Farage for 17 years, I haven't got excited by it again.

whenwillsummercome · 15/07/2016 11:48

Peachpudding: you can't negotiate if the people you want to negotiate with refuse.
I think we're buggered, frankly.
44% of our exports go to them
8% of theirs come to us
Who does this matter more to?

If I were France, or Germany, or Croatia, I'd just sit still and watch Britain squirm, and refuse to do ANYthing on Britain's timetable. Or to make any concessions at all. Why would they?

MangoMoon · 15/07/2016 12:30

If I were France, or Germany, or Croatia, I'd just sit still and watch Britain squirm, and refuse to do ANYthing on Britain's timetable. Or to make any concessions at all.

Why?
What is the motivation behind 'punishing' Britain?
What have we done that is so bad?

We've simply said "we don't want to be in your club anymore", that's all.

twofingerstoGideon · 15/07/2016 13:36

Mango, I think the motivation would be to try and stop other club members from doing the same thing, wouldn't it? I imagine we've caused/will continue to cause a lot of disruption and a huge amount (years worth) of work for the EU. I wonder how much it will cost them to negotiate with us. They will be looking after their own interests, just as much as the UK will attempt to look after its own.

MangoMoon · 15/07/2016 14:45

Ah, yes - that makes sense.

do11y · 15/07/2016 20:12

A message to the OP :

Stop this idiotic tirade. Do you think the Remainers didn't lie? All the Remainers who bleat on about the lies from the Leave side should just take a good long look at themselves. To jog your memory a little bit, let me get you started on a few of the untruths from the Remain side...

  1. Osborne claims there will be an immediate "Lehman style crash" following a Brexit vote. Did it happen?

  2. Osborne claims that every house-hold would be £4300 worse off if we leave the EU - widely debunked as rubbish

  3. Osborne says that we would fall into recession, he'd need to unleash a 'punishment budget' if we vote to leave, saying he would have to raise taxes and decrease public spending. Well even an economics student would be able to tell you that you would need to do exactly the opposite if the country fell into recession... And to top it off, the new Chancellor, Phillip Hammond, has rubbished Osborne's emergency budget

  4. Finally, let's not forget Cameron's apocalyptic world war three predictions or his assertions that Turkey would join the EU in the year 3000 - it is already happening BTW!

Why are you conveniently ignoring all the BS to come out of the Remain camps campaign? Would you say these are lies or mere exaggerations?

Easy for the Remain campaign voters to sweep these untruths under the carpet isn't it?

I absolutely do NOT condone to exaggerations which came out of the Leave campaign either. I believe the biggest one (the one everyone I think is now clutching to) is the £350 million a week rebate. That was quashed by several sources, but the fact of the matter remains: the UK is a NET CONTRIBUTOR to the EU, to the tune of £8.5 billion a year (or £163.5 million a week). I have no idea why the Leave campaign felt they needed to embellish this figure because even the revised number is still unacceptably large in my opinion. £163.5 A WEEK!

Source: fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Now stop your nonsense and accept the outcome of this democratic BINDING vote.

Redactio · 15/07/2016 20:17

OP
We had a petition n to leave the EU, it was called a referendum.
An unfortunate side effect of democracy is that some people don't get what they want.
That is tough, but on this occasion you need to suck it up.

catbasilio · 15/07/2016 23:54

If I hear once again "Brexit is Brexit....".....

A crowd can easily stone someone for "justice" - mass effect works very well to draw people into action (stoning for example), but it does not make it right, does it?? The same with Brexit!

annandale · 16/07/2016 07:28

Um, do11y, cat, redactio, have any if you actually read the op?

peteneras · 16/07/2016 07:36

Yes, WW3 - I better start building my bunker now having already delayed 3 weeks . . . don't want to push my luck too far!