Junior Doctors Strike

[Lanchester]

Do the Junior Doctors seriously think that they are still
respected for always putting the interest of their individual patient first?

urbanfox - an excerpt from the Conservative Party Manifesto

"Already millions more people
can see a GP 7 days a week, from 8am-8pm, but by 2020 we
want this for everyone. We will now go further, with hospitals
properly staffed, so that the quality of care is the same
every day of the week."

What do YOU think that means was their intention?

There are lots of view points here and lots of issues. I think part of the problem is that the contract is so complicated and there are so many issues that people may have different priorities and reasons for striking.

Some the discrimination against women, some the reduction in pay for future young medics, the impact on the specialties with the most unsocial hours and difficulty recruiting, all the lack of safeguards against unsafe long hours and rotas that chop and change from nights to days Etc.
I personally don't believe the government/ press spin. There is no 13.5% pay rise.
I do know that the NHS is run on goodwill and that many medics will leave if this contract goes through.

I heard a good analogy that 54k pilots are refusing to get on and fly a plane that they think is going to crash. As a passenger I am tempted to believe them!

Thank you and good luck!

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/28/the-new-junior-doctors-contract-will-create-a-staffing-crisis-in/

Unfortunately I don't think the government will back down at all. And they can afford not to: they can repopulate the NHS with overseas doctors, more or less. The JDs are being hung out to dry because the NHS is expensive and has a ridiculous management and bureaucratic system in place.
I run drug trials and the number of people to sign off a simple contract is silly. Plus the amount of time off taken - although maybe stress related, is very high. This is anecdotal of course but there appears to be something of a problem there too.
In short they are trying to make savings in the wrong place.

Good article Notts very clear and explanatory.

Kennington - I think "they think they are going to staff vacancies with foreign drs but I read that some trusts have already tried foreign recruitment drives for their rota problems and failed to attract enough candidates. The UK used to be a place that was attractive for foreign drs to work but the T&Cs, wages and work pressures now make us an unattractive choice on the international market.

The NHS is no longer attractive foreign medics. Pay has been depressed for too many years and the training time is not protected unlike in the US. My department has been trying to recruit two registrars for the past year, unsuccessfully. We have advertised several times.

And we have two registrars leaving in the next year, both haven't decided if they want to apply for English Consultant jobs. August will be interesting.

Lanchester it's fairly clear that you and I are not going to agree on this issue but I would ask you to refrain from making personal comments about me, particularly as you know nothing about me, my background or circumstances. How can you deduce that I have an "unearned sense of entitlement"?

To clarify, as a junior doctor I do not feel 'despair' about my own situation, but at the massive workforce planning issue that is about to destroy the NHS. There are already numerous gaps in medical rotas which we struggle to cover. Simple maths tells us that rostering more doctors at the weekends without increasing either their numbers or their hours, means still fewer doctors present in the week. So weekday care, when the workload is heavier with both elective and emergency work to manage, will suffer. Applications to specialist training are falling year on year. Fewer people are applying to medical school. GPs are retiring at a rate of knots with no one to replace them. These are all facts, not opinion. The problem isn't going away. Past a critical point of understaffing (and underfunding), the NHS will cease to function completely. Virgin/BUPA might then be interested in replacing a few hips, as this turns a profit, but where is the profit margin in nursing someone through terminal cancer, for example?

Junior doctors have never claimed to be poorly paid, nor asked for a pay rise. As you say, we are paid above average. But think about that person who earns an average or lower salary, or who cannot work due to ill health - will they be able to easily afford BUPA premiums when the NHS crumbles? We will end up with a two tier health system, one for the rich and another for the poor.

Junior doctors are not a barrier to the 7 day NHS, we already work nights, evenings and weekends, and we want our service to be the best it can be, but this contract is not the way to do it. More money and more staff (across all groups, not just doctors) are needed.

I personally would welcome an open and frank cross party discussion on how to give the NHS the increased resources it so desperately needs.

Excellent post Rachel- you said what I was trying to say far more articulately! I agree.

Excellent post Rachel. A lot of us realise this. The JD's could sit. Back and watch the nhs be dismantled but thankfully you care enough to try and stop this act of vandalism by this government.
My only hope is that on the whole all the JD's on tv and social media are informed, articulate and engaged the politicians are coming across as spouting party line bullshit and are unable to answer any question other than parroting their script.
I believe the govt thought once you went on strike this week support would plummet but it isn't and won't.
Thank you from someone who relies on your dedication and skill.

Lanchester
You are so sure about everything. Just like Jeremy.
When you have done a year as a med reg ( or shadowed one for a month) , get back to us.
Until then just shut up for gods sake because you haven't any idea what JDs work conditions are like. No idea. Why you are obsessed with Drs I don't know.. Are you a failed medic?

Lynnm63 Thu 28-Apr-16 21:32:44
"Excellent post Rachel. A lot of us realise this. The JD's could sit. Back and watch the nhs be dismantled but thankfully you care enough to try and stop this act of vandalism by this government........."
You have been told on this thread many times that in the opinion of MANY people JDs refusing to cover emergencies is hardly an admirable and selfless act.
It is an ABANDONMENT OF DUTY

"I believe the govt thought once you went on strike this week support would plummet but it isn't and won't."
If this thread is anything to go by you seem to be deluding yourself somewhat there !

Thank you from someone who relies on your dedication and skill."
Another case of Medical Luvviedom
Daaahlings - aren't we simply wonderful ! so dedicated ! Our public simply Adore us !

"Gold plated pensions" are all very well- but doctors seem to die quite a lot earlier than the average Brit
bjcardio.co.uk/2009/11/lifespan-and-cardiology/
versus

www.itv.com/news/2015-09-15/average-life-expectancy-in-england-rises-to-81-years/

Nottsmove16 Thu 28-Apr-16 16:28:52
"There are lots of view points here and lots of issues. I think part of the problem is that the contract is so complicated and there are so many issues that people may have different priorities and reasons for striking...."

The JDs have been telling everyone that this is a simple case of the government refusing to pay them the hours rate premiumm that they think they deserve up to 5pm on Saturdays.
The JDs have been saying that the number of hours they do is too great at present and is unsafe.
TheJDs have been saying that they are happy to go bacck to work coveing the same hours at present as long as they do not get a hourly rate cut at any time on Saturdays.
The JDs have not discussed the concessions that the govt have made in negotiations - not even the 13.5 % pay rise.

The JDs should be able to be honest and clear and to state their case simply and clearly.
At present they have failed to communicate that to the public and their case sounds weak and confused - and actually contradictoory and disingenuous.
If they cannot state their case clearly then it almost certainly does not justify strikes and certainly does not justify withdrawal of emengency cover and abandonment of their duties.

LanchesterI'd be dead but for the dedication of a lot of medical staff. They're not all perfect but most are pretty damn incredible.
I think you're deluded Lanchester you and maybe two others who may be you in different guises are anti JD's most are agreeing with me.
EVERYONE HAS THE RIGHT TO WITHDRAW THEIR LABOUR. ITS NOT DERELICTION OF DUTY ITS THEIR LEGAL RIGHT.
IF I HAD THE CHOICE OF A DOCTOR OR A POLITICIAN I KNOW WHO ID CHOOSE TO BELIEVE.

Ffs Lanchester it's not a pay rise. Give x take away 2x is a pay cut.
You must be Jeremy hunt no one else can be this criminally stupid or disingenuous.

Let's not fall into the trap. Lanchester is either a right wing Dr hater, a failed medic or a Torygraph journalist.

There are those that try hard to understand
And those that cannot understand
And also there are those that will not understand
I didn't understand so did some research and now I do understand
A quote from my dd(17) but relevant

PortiaCastis Thu 28-Apr-16 23:15:43
that most recent post of yours sounds quite portentious and zen like - tell us what you concluded?

Himalayanrock Thu 28-Apr-16 23:08:04
"Let's not fall into the trap. Lanchester is either a right wing Dr hater, a failed medic or a Torygraph journalist."

A lot of your stuff seems to be criticising the messenger rather than the message.
If you have an analysis of the arguments why not share that ? You might have an opinion worth other people considering?

Lynnm63 Thu 28-Apr-16 22:47:20
"...most are agreeing with me..."
have you considered that the people supporting your views could be a self reinforcing group of medical luvvies though?
You know the kind of thing by now : "Daaahling ...aren't we just wonderful ! "

etc etc

I'm not a medical luvvy.

I'm Spartacus.

Lanchester I'm not opposed to your views but I wonder why you devote so much time to this and care so enormously? You must have some personal reason, if you don't mind my asking? And what do you do? I've wondered on previous threads and haven't asked, but now you've started another I simply can't help it!

BoatyMcBoat
So Boaty / Spartacus maybe you can sail your boat (i.e. post on this thread) and rescue (i.e. persuade) the JDs from their "despair" at their slave like "subsistence" working conditions then?