Junior Doctors Strike

[Lanchester]

Do the Junior Doctors seriously think that they are still
respected for always putting the interest of their individual patient first?

And lougle my favourite rotation has been ITU so thanks for being one of those awesome nurses. I swear I heard the "bing bing bongs" in my sleep for a month after I left the unit.

Old farticus sorry you've had a bad experience of the nhs. I've experienced a lot of the nhs some absolutely incredible at the risk of outing myself my twins were prem the care exemplary. I was in icu gravely ill for weeks once again exemplary care but follow up physiotherapist was dire. My mum was failed by the nhs and died I believe due to negligence so I've seen both sides BUT I don't want to go back pre nhs when my nan would save a shilling a week to pay for a doctor. When you wouldn't call a doctor in case you couldn't afford the cost.
The nhs may not be perfect but what the Tories are doing isn't going to improve things. The nhs is on the edge of an abyss and I worry the Country is sleepwalking to privatisation and when they wake up it'll be too late.

Oldfarticus / Urbanfox

You have clearly completely miscomprehended what the strike is about. If it was about doctors getting more money they would have accepted the 13.5% pay rise.

JDs already work weekends - for emergency cover, so it is not about working weekends.

The government has said they want both emergency and elective care to be 7 days a week. But to achieve this they will have to spread Junior Doctors more thinly and remove the controls in place to stop them working excessive hours. The government have committed to providing a greater service at no additional cost.

I am sorry you have had a bad experience of the NHS OldF - but if you can not see that this will make more people suffer that, then I can't understand it on your behalf.

However, I have now reached the point of realisation that no valid, rational or logical argument will change your opinion. That is fair enough, however I have not heard a single valid, rational or logical argument coming from you.

I truly hope that the Junior Doctors win their battle to protect themselves from the imposition of a new contract that will do harm to them and to patients.

OldF - if you are not Lanchester then I apologise and withdraw that accusation.

Separately, I understand from a number of posts that you are currently living overseas and getting free healthcare there. At the same time you are a higher rate taxpayer in this country. May I suggest you sack your accountant?

"Well urbanfox summed up the situation pretty well there. Get back to work or jump ship!"

As has already been explained a junior Dr is not ALLOWED to jump ship. The only way of getting training in the UK is to work for the NHS if you are a junior Dr.

More to the point the new contract specifically forbids a junior Dr working as a locum outside their NHS hours without first offering their hours to the NHS at a pre-specified rate.

The Govt has put itself in the position of essentially preventing the junior Drs working for any other provider and the NHS gets first call on all their time - even outside the 48 contracted hours.

It is actually a breach of their human rights to be prevented from working for another employer. Essentially a slave employer determines what a person is paid and what they are allowed to do and for how many hours. That is where the Govt is right now with junior Drs. The junior Drs have no option but to work for the NHS under the new contract at whatever price the NHS sees fit.

They are being told to work for less for longer hours and there is no safeguard on how long those hours can be. The NHS trust can literally do what it likes without penalty under the new contract.

It is not just about Saturday working.

I don't think the new contract is designed to provide 7 day non emergency procedures, it is supposed to make emergency care as safe at the weekend as it is mon-fri. Hopefully more will come later

What makes you think emergency care isn't as safe at weekends? Have you fell hook like and sinker for Hunts 'more people die at weekends due to staffing' crap that has been disputed again and again and even the authors of the study that showed higher mortality rates publicly stated he was misinterpreting the results to his own gain?

Hunt has already said this contract change is to facilitate the 7 day NHS.

Lynn I share your concerns about what the government's long-term plans are but as I said upthread, I am not convinced that we can fund a decent NHS by taxation alone these days. I dislike the way that those on the left pretend that the only options are NHS or a fully private system like the US. Most countries don't have a NHS and yet they manage universal coverage pretty well.

I would MUCH rather have an honest debate about what the NHS can and can't provide, with a more transparent, nationally consistent system, but that is not what we have at the moment. And it is not what we will have if the BMA "wins". All they will achieve is to kick the can a few miles down the road.

I cannot get past the idea that - as a result of the actions of a group of very well-paid, well-educated people - the sick and their families will be more worried and stressed than before. That, combined with the larking about/singing by JD's I saw outside my nearest hospital, just makes me feel very queasy indeed.

OldFarticus, read this very thread from about Tue 26-Apr-16 15:55:40.

In fact, most of sallysparrows posts are very informative.

Pausing - I have read the thread. Patronising much?

I accept some JD's are dicks as are some consultants, accountants along with some shop assistants, bar staff, baristas and dustmen or whatever dustmen are called these days. However JHunt isn't interested in resolving anything. His agenda is to dismantle the nhs. The Tory cronies can afford private health care and the MPs will stick it on expenses anyway. Will ordinary people be able to afford health insurance though when so many are barely keeping their head above water.
Will we have rich people living to 90+ and the poor dying at 50.

No, the public will pay the price.

No, the public will then have the choice to change the government to one that will take more money off the poor to pay well off Junior doctors more. Or not.

And no, most industries do not expect to open Saturdays by requiring the same number of already full-time staff, already exceeding the Working Hours Directive, to do additional shifts.

They do it by hiring more staff.

If you've read it, why are you claiming JDs are being offered a 13% pay rise?

It's been explained several times that this isn't the case.

They do, Pausing - they really do.

And your reference to the WTD made me laugh - every single job I have ever had requires rights under it to be waived before the ink is dry on the employment contract. IME you can have good pay or shorter working hours, not both.

Which industry are you in, OldFarticus?

Because some industries have always had ludicrous hours (eg law).

Others have moved to 7-day service, but don't expect that means staff will work 7 days followed by 7 days followed by 7 days, etc.

And in fact I was discussing this recently with a friend who got parachuted in to a project-gone-wrong, which had got itself into a groove of no-days-off a week.

First thing he did was start sending everyone home every weekend. They were burning themselves out for nothing.

Once things had been refocussed, and everyone set off in the right direction, there was no question of them needing to work 7-days a week without end (although everyone's prepared to put hands to the pump for deadlines or crises).

This thread is increasingly depressing. When I think of our JDs, trying to save somebody's life, battling to maintain a blood pressure, trying to correct their electrolytes to avoid cardiac arrest, chasing their tails as one vital treatment causes problems that require another vital treatment, with the nurses of other patients coming to alert them that their patient needs urgent intervention too....to know that members of the public think they are greedy, entitled, arrogant people who are only thinking about themselves...it's so unjust.

Medicine isn't like it is on TV. Patients don't come neatly packaged with their one medical problem that can be dealt with in 45 minutes. It's exhausting work and I admire every one of them for sticking it out.

"If you've read it, why are you claiming JDs are being offered a 13% pay rise? "

unless they stick to dermatology, podiatry, neurology and other stuff that only happens on weekdays I think. that would be a pay rise.

A&E, etc, are the ones who are a bit stuffed.

which does seem bonkers. as most people going into, say, podiatry have deliberately chosen a somewhat quieter job and would be only too happy for the all-night crowd to get more money in return for the stress and risk.

I keep agreeing with bits of what everyone says. Does anyone else have that problem?

I'll stand corrected by anyone in the field, MissTriggs, but my understanding was that Junior Doctors have to do rotations round most/all of the specialisms.

So, IIUC, until they themselves specialise they'll be affected by any demand for more hours.

I disagree with people saying doctors are overpaid. Can someone post a payscale as I have to pick up dd.

Pay circular for imposed contract www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/Employers/Documents/Need%20to%20know/Pay%20and%20Conditions%20Circular%20MD%2022016.pdf

Pay circular for current contract
www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/Employers/Documents/Pay%20and%20reward/Pay%20and%20Conditions%20Circular%20MD%2012015.pdf

unexpsoc - The government has made it clear its not about 7 day elective care, its about 7 day urgent and emergency care. The government has committed to a better weekend service at a cost of 13.5% pay rise for JD but that wasn't enough for the BMA. So lets not pretend its not about a bigger pay rise.

ABetaDad1 a doctor can jump ship anytime they want, there is nothing stopping them getting the mon-fri 9-5 job they want, it just won't be in the NHS

GraysAnalogy I think hospitals are less safe at the weekend because my family and I have been in them many times during my life at weekends and during the week, and its a lot harder to get treated at the weekend.

The real debate here should be how do we fund health care better, its very clear we are not prepared to pay more taxes for it, and any time a change is suggested the socialists shout it down as privatisation, or in this case striking.

No, the public will then have the choice to change the government to one that will take more money off the poor to pay well off Junior doctors more. Or not.

It'll be too late by then. And there'll be fewer of the poor, due to the fact that they won't be able to access adequate health care.

Shezadoc Thanks for posting. Rîdiculous pay! I get almost the same doing admin and you have my support

Urbanfox - yes, the government have made it clear it's not about elective care. The other side in the argument says that it is about elective care and dangerous hours. Is your argument that we should just believe what the government have said? It's a point of view I suppose. Thank goodness nothing has happened this week to make anyone doubt what the government tell us.

Thankyou PortiaCastis