Junior Doctors Strike

[Lanchester]

Do the Junior Doctors seriously think that they are still
respected for always putting the interest of their individual patient first?

This isn't to say there aren't improvements that could be made to the NHS. Trying to get change for our patients is often like walking through treacle. Buildings are, in some places, not fit for purpose (leaking roofs, lack of space, still trying to work in army Nissen huts, unable to start new types of clinic as no space and no immeadiate improvement to trust finances, would improve patient outcomes and therefore decrease costs in the long term...)
The NHS is not perfect, but as with when a mistake happens it's more than just one person, it's a complicated mix in the NHS too. Sometimes there is a bit of a 'Computer says no' attitude, but it's also not for a want of trying to get changes through within the NHS.

thanks for your post do you mind confirming whether you are a JD? The talk of redundancy surprised me

:(
really sorry to hear that.

Miss Triggs, it is interesting to hear that you dislike the campaign- I agree they haven't got everything right. From extensive following of the issue on social media it is evident that there is very little BMA led campaign - I saw one ad in a national paper. The majority is grassroots campaigning by junior doctors in their free time. Every JD who has volunteered for an interview/ written an article etc are all working mostly independently and hence the mixed messages. It is a case of a cry going out for a JD in the London area to speak to XY or Z and someone looks at their shift pattern and volunteers. There innovative ideas like the t shirts designed by Vivienne westward, the protest outside the DOH with the empty chair being manned by a rota of volunteers, leaflets that have been designed, letters that have been written and signed by 1000s at a time, letters to MPs, and people engaging across the country at WI meetings, church groups etc and lots of " meet the doctors" campaigns, strikes, protests, art work etc
The unity/ effort and free time people are giving up is astounding and I am constantly amazed. The impression I get from the thousands of JDs is that people are passionate about saving the NHS and genuinely feel that it is under threat. They are outraged by the spin and lies told by politicians and right-wing press and when honesty is something that is drummed into doctors it is this and the constant negative portrayal of greedy doctors that perhaps grates the most.

Terms and conditions have been bad before, pay frozen/ dropped in real terms, pensions cut etc and most JDs carry on without a murmur- this really is on a whole different scale!

It is interesting that people of my parents generation who don't follow social media and read the telegraph / times and get their news from the BBC don't have any idea of any of the above

People have no idea in general, I think. Even if they 'know' what conditions are like, they can't understand the stress that dealing with two simultaneous emergencies (and by that I mean real, life threatening) in the middle of the night brings. Even I didn't until it happened to me. Sometimes we look at each other in faint disbelief and ask ourselves if something really just happened. Yet it is our every day reality. We look after the very sickest patients. We love what we do. We are privileged to do it. But it does seem unfair to be judged to 'have it easy' because we will get a pension at the end of it.

( last comment not aimed at you Miss Triggs!)

Miss Trigs and Young girl I was politely refraining from pointing out that spouses benefit from the generous pension so I'm glad you acknowledged it first.

My DH is self employed and has no pension or job security but more flexibility than me. I earn a lot more money than he does. We are just gender reversed from the usual situation but probably quite like you as a family really.

He had the misfortune to get the bleeding heart liberal type of dr who failed to choose her specialty carefully for maximum financial rewards rather than the thrusting career orientated spouse that young girl has and thus he does not get 5 holidays a year (or in fact any holidays this year) on my nonexistent private income. I've never applied for a clinical excellence award. Apparently women Drs rarely do.

I still believe that most Drs are not in it for the money and that campaigning against a pay cut and worse terms and conditions in a monopoly employer situation is something junior Drs are perfectly entitled to do. I am not much keen on the whinging either but Hunt makes it a dirty fight by continually trotting out the weekend mortality stats, implying that Drs don't work at weekend when they do and claiming this is a pay rise.

I don't think they have a hope of winning and I am getting a bit sick of covering now with my own work stacking up tbh so I really hope they don't announce any more strike dates although I never say so.

Point taken lougle. I'm tired today because I stayed up to watch Match of the Day

I also don't think they will win unless they massively upskill their campaigning.

"They are outraged by the spin and lies told by politicians and right-wing press and when honesty is something that is drummed into doctors it is this and the constant negative portrayal of greedy doctors that perhaps grates the most. "

just tell them to read this thread before opening their mouths and we might get somewhere.

Draylon
Read the thread
Everybody on it thinks they could have made more money doing something else

No problem, Miss Triggs I'm post nights and Sunday was an awful night, so I'm probably a bit oversensitive.

Ok, I am not as polite as Mamadoc

beyond the age of25, It is childish to negotiate one's pay on the basis of one's degree/A levels/ initial job interview. Real life does not work like that. Or the world would not be full of impecunious postdocs.

Lougle I think the tiredness issue is so important.....

Sorry Draylon, I was grumpy there. It's just such a different mindset

Yes the dispute should partly be about pay, just not on a basis of absurd beliefs that"I could be a banker you know"

Some of the problem,I think, particularly with broadcast media, is its hard to get across your points when you have a time limit, and editing is always going to be for the maximum news worthiness. It's taken 39 pages of debate on here to have a discussion, it's hard to get that across in other formats.
I have seen some brilliant interviews, and I've seen some dire ones where I wanted to go and hide behind the sofa. Also heard some on the radio which don't give a hope of explaining all the issues. (Radio 4 and the today programme being a case in point). Politicians come across as smoother, and are much better at deflecting questions than non media trained jd's.
Had a discussion with a couple of colleagues today, and unfortunately come August our rotas are going to be nowhere like full. There will be a lot of acting down, and current consultant timetables will have to be changed to cover the gaps. Training for the remaining juniors is likely to get considerably worse. So this is the reality that we are facing.
Reminds me of the old Chinese proverb, may you be cursed to live in interesting times...

But they are pretty much smart enough to be able to choose another probably better remunerated career.

But what? They wouldn't necessarily have the right skills to be very successful bankers and even if they did, this would simply not be an option for them all so it's medicine or....what? What is this mythical alternative career that has all the rewards of a medical career with none of the drawbacks?

gonetoseeamanaboutadog - I think all the NHS folk who've paid attention on the thread have grasped this now. See Mamadoc's succinct summary. And the nice docs on here can gently share ...

My friend was a Dr, he now works for GSK and has tripled his income and gets an annual bonus.

"may you be cursed to live in interesting times..."

yes, I was thinking about that.
I was thinking about how crap the campaigning is (compared to, say, the way Friends of the Earth campaigned for the Climate Change Bill, something I was actively involved in) and how much better it could be.

then I was thinking about inspirational modest humble leaders like Vaclav Havel (substitute according to your generation)

then I was thinking "ah, but Havel had to wait for the times to be right"

and I'm not sure if the times are right, I just don't knowwhich economic model will triumph and at the end of the day we all still work in the oil industry really...

Pope Francis would be a good person to take the BMA by the scruff of its neck and show them how to campaign.... the man is a genius, an absolute genius

Not even Catholic and I think he's good. Still disagree with him on some points though.. But then don't think I'm ever going to entirely agree with any religions views on reproductive rights until they come to agree with mine! But that is very definitely a different discussion for a very different day...