Junior Doctors Strike

[Lanchester]

Do the Junior Doctors seriously think that they are still
respected for always putting the interest of their individual patient first?

OldFarticus Thu 28-Apr-16 12:41:10
I would happily pay more - but not to the NHS.

OldFarticus Thu 28-Apr-16 13:45:18
I also clearly said that 7-day working would also require other disciplines. Have they stopped teaching reading comprehension at medical school or are you all too busy waving placards and cheering? Just because other staff and technicians are needed is no reason NOT to start somewhere.

So... what are you expecting?

It seems to me that doctors (at all levels) want the pay without the responsibility

I'm sorry I burst out laughing at that. We have been accused of being greedy and lazy and now accused of not having enough responsibility. I really should have gone into banking.

Thanks Lynn - no need to constantly repeat the same point (that I have already acknowledged and agreed with).

"The reason other "HCPs" ate so vocal in support of the strikes is that they know that soon they themselves will also be required to work across 7 days on rostered shifts at reduced premiums for weekend working."

Ha! That is funny. It's Bank Holiday weekend this weekend. I was on Saturday night shift and Sunday night shift. Except that I got a text message at 11:03 today asking if I could do Friday night shift as well, which means either that we're short staffed or (more likely) that our number of critically ill patients had increased so we have to increase the staffing of our unit.

So this part-time nurse, contracted for 23 hours per week, will do 32.25 hours of unsociable hours over 3 days and not have a single day with her family over the bank holiday weekend and her husband is going to have to find something to occupy the children each morning to allow a bit of sleep.

But hey, us HCPs who don't provide a 7 day NHS.

《Hi MeirAya 》

Pausing - I don't see any conflict between those two statements. Would you like me to try and use fewer syllables?

NHS pisses money up the wall.
Better management required.
SOME services also required 7 days.
ALL services need improvement at weekends because care is crap/nonexistent after 5pm of Friday.

But no one seems to be getting it however often it's raised. You'd think JD's did everything from making tea to operating the mri scanner and cleaning the wards. They are one of the few groups who already work 7 days a week

Right, so all this is predicated on you believing there are efficiency savings still out there.

Which can be redeployed to hire more staff to cover the hours for elective 7-day services?

Along with nurses thank you to Lougle and every other nurse. Part of me thinks you should tell the health secretary to FOTTFSOFTFOSM and quit and the rest thinks please don't as we all need you so much.

Well I am still waiting for someone to take up my pension suggestion, pausing, but the JD's have all gone very quiet.

I rather suspect that if the NHS pension details were made public the JD's might lose a bit of public sympathy. The main reason GP's are leaving (for example) seems to be because they can afford to play golf in the Dordogne indefinitely after the age of about 55.

Lanchester

In all the hospitals I have worked for you stay until the job is done. Every day. No overtime, no time in lieu. When your department is constantly short staffed the number of extra hours you put in can easily be 3-4 hours every day for a normal 8 hour shift. If the next shift has not been filled due to sickness or a rota gap then one of us steps in a do a double. That's true for nurses as well. Why do we put up with it? Because the patients need us and we don't want to leave colleagues in the lurch due to unsafe staffing.

For this we get vilified and told we are being lazy for not wanting accept a pay cut in return for increasing our hours even more.

Please do come and join us in the NHS. We need dedicated people who are willing to work well beyond what they are paid to do. It's a stressful job and constantly under resourced but the patients on the whole are great and makes it worthwhile.

"Just so I can be clear I understand your arguments Old Farticus - you voted for a 7 day NHS service at your local dire facilities, staffed by self-inflated junior doctors, whilst at the same time paying for private healthcare and therefore wouldn't benefit from these additional services anyway, but don't believe there should be additional funding for them?

Because that is a really interesting viewpoint.*

I clearly said it was my relatives who were suffering at weekends on NHS wards. "

My apologies, your argument is that - you voted for a 7 day NHS service at your local dire facilities, staffed by self-inflated junior doctors, but you don't want to pay extra for it because it is ONLY your relatives who need it, as you have private healthcare?

Can you understand how weak a position of argument that is? Also, appealing to emotion "in front of my dying grandmother" and anecdotal evidence "the junior doctor who said" are what is known as logical fallacy? See, whilst I don't know if they teach reading comprehension at medical school (I am an accountant), I know that you have never been taught how to debate.

It does lead me to a question though - who is the sock-puppet - you or Lanchester?

Lynnm63 thank you. I don't know a single nurse or doctor who doesn't give everything they have to provide the best care for their patients. Perhaps I'm lucky to work with a dedicated bunch on my lovely unit, but it's a privilege to care for people who need life saving intervention.

I rather suspect that if the NHS pension details were made public the JD's might lose a bit of public sympathy. The main reason GP's are leaving (for example) seems to be because they can afford to play golf in the Dordogne indefinitely after the age of about 55.

It is public - as a public sector pension scheme it has to be.

www.gov.uk/government/news/nhs-pension-scheme-proposal-what-it-means-for-doctors
I found it for you. You are welcome.

Most private practice consultants offer weekend and evening clinics. Because there is obviously demand.

And most charge extra for it.

So, it's not efficiency savings you're looking at after all?

It's a huge cut to the T&Cs of doctors (removal of existing pension arrangements). In the hope of recruiting more doctors.

And maybe the same for the other professions required to operate scanners, etc?

I don't expect to see much of my pension. Can't draw it until I'm 67 and all JDs are on career average pensions anyway. Average age of death for my speciality is about 73 (it's 57 for the poor docs in A&E).

I don't think the new contract is designed to provide 7 day non emergency procedures, it is supposed to make emergency care as safe at the weekend as it is mon-fri. Hopefully more will come later.

Apart from the striking it is affordable.

Doctors disagree, fair enough you have made your point. Now either get back to work or jump ship. It the government have got it wrong they will pay the price, or maybe just maybe the public will like the change.

Medicine will still be an attractive profession and people will still fight to get onto a subsidised medicine degree.

Saturday working is normal now, the world has moved on.

unex - yes, anecdotal, but as someone who has had consistently dire and awful experience of the NHS and regards private healthcare as essential, then you will forgive me for not chanting and yelling to "save the NHS" and treating the JD's who do seem to want to keep the gravy train running as heroes. Do we want to preserve future generations' rights to die in their own shit whilst their call bells are ignored? Because that is the NHS to me.

For those that do need it (and I include my relatives), then I see absolutely no reason for treating weekends as sacred just because it's more convenient for the staff.

I do not know what a sock puppet it, but if you are insinuating that Lanchester and I are the same perosn, then you are utterly wrong again It's pretty insulting to assume that there is only one reasonable viewpoint on ANY subject, let alone one such as this, where everyone's opinion will be coloured by their experience.

Pausing and yet the JD's want sick and disabled to receive fewer resources so that a larger slice of the health budget in spent on their wages? I know which option I prefer.

And last time I checked the JD's had just been offered (and declined) a 13.5% pay rise.

Well urbanfox summed up the situation pretty well there. Get back to work or jump ship!
BUT PLEASE either way - stop telling people you are in "despair" at your conditions of work ...and asking them to improve those conditions for you .... When as you well know your conditions of work are better than THEY will ever have.

I don't really know what to say to you, OldFarticus.

You accuse other people - in extremely rude terms - of poor reading comprehension.

Yet appear not to have understood the many, many repetitions on this thread that JDs aren't asking for a pay rise.

They're trying to avoid probable increases in weekly hours (from their already ludicrously high hours) which this contract will incentivise for the employers.

Giving a 13.5% base payrise at the same time as taking away 23-45% of supplements, to arrive at an overall 10-30% pay cut is not a payrise!

Thanks for trying to explain pausing but sometimes it's futile. I don't know why I even bothered engaging as I already knew when this thread started what tone it was going to take (Lanchester only ever posts pro Jeremy Hunt propaganda).

It the government have got it wrong they will pay the price, or maybe just maybe the public will like the change.

No, the public will pay the price.

As I understand it, they are making Saturday a "normal" working day - like it is for most other people commanding similar salaries - and offering 13.%% to make up for that.

It happened years ago in most industries - without the rise!