Junior Doctors Strike

[Lanchester]

Do the Junior Doctors seriously think that they are still
respected for always putting the interest of their individual patient first?

Just so I can be clear I understand your arguments Old Farticus - you voted for a 7 day NHS service at your local dire facilities, staffed by self-inflated junior doctors, whilst at the same time paying for private healthcare and therefore wouldn't benefit from these additional services anyway, but don't believe there should be additional funding for them?

Because that is a really interesting viewpoint.

I fully support the doctors during this strike action. I don't know anyone who doesn't. It's a shame that it's come to this. What a dreadful Government we have.

Junior Doctors are also taxpayers but sadly do not earn enough to be in the higher tax bracket

But who did you think was going to do these extra hours, OldFarticus?

Extra doctors, acquired from god knows where (which many doctors on this thread have said they'd positively welcome)?

Or the same doctors who have already worked 80 hour weeks, doing extra? Because that will reduce harm to patients?

If I need a MRI scan or discharge or whatever it should happen just as smoothly on Saturday as Tuesday. It makes no sense for expensive equipment to sit idle for huge periods of time. That is a hallmark of inefficiency

But you don't want to fund the staff to run the scanner, interpret the results, dispense the discharge medications, do the OT and physio assessment, assess the social care package and start the home visits to ensure safe discharge?

So do you expect them to work for free then? Or better still, pay for the privilege of coming to work?

If I need a MRI scan or discharge or whatever it should happen just as smoothly on Saturday as Tuesday. It makes no sense for expensive equipment to sit idle for huge periods of time. That is a hallmark of inefficiency.

Is the government proposing to recruit technicians to work at weekends to keep expensive equipment in operation?

If they follow the current JD contract model, then they are more likely to announce that weekends no longer exist so everyone gets a paycut (currently weekends get a pay uplift for agenda for change staff) and have to work extra hours for free to keep their head financially above water. Or quit.

But according to some that's a perfectly acceptable thing to do because you know... public sector and all that.

Lancaster sorry I realise I may not have explained myself clearly- I don't believe that patients were at risk in the emergency setting. Where the impact would have been is through the cancellation of routine appointments and routine operations. The consultants usually running these areas having been redeployed to the emergency setting. These cancellations are what cause pressure on the government and therefore the strikes are a bargaining tool. They weren't trying to cause harm to patients in an emergency scenario!

AugustaFN

Of course the government will need to roster many more NHS staff to cover weekends.
Why do you think not?
There is a massive cost in idle resources at the weekend. Weekends in the NHS also affect Friday afternoons as there seems to be a
gradual wind-down effect.
The NHS is supposed to be there for patient not staff. Accept new contracts to try and find other employment. Better hurry though - look what happened to Syrian Refugees who left their journey until this Spring I.e. Barriers and fences.
Doctors in other countries may bar your immigration.

"Pausing I voted to stop the NHS from harming and killing people at weekends due to neglect and understaffing. Because I have seen that happen with more than one family member.

If I need a MRI scan or discharge or whatever it should happen just as smoothly on Saturday as Tuesday. It makes no sense for expensive equipment to sit idle for huge periods of time. That is a hallmark of inefficiency."

Junior doctors don't do MRI scans. They aren't the reason you can't have one at the weekend. You can't have one at the weekend because the radiographers offer a 9-5 Monday to Friday service and a skeleton crew outside of those hours. The Radiologists also do routine interpretation in those hours. If you really needed one you'd get one - emergencies go ahead no matter what, but all junior doctors do is full in an electronic request form!

This is the lie that is being told - those doctors preventing a 7 day service. It's simply not true. The whole infrastructure would need to be changed.

7 day per week electives...where would the patients go?? We have only got room for the patient's we currently treat. Many days we have no beds at all. We have patients who are fit for the wards stuck on ICU because there is no ward bed. We have patients who need ward beds stuck in A&E because there isn't a bed. We have patients who are fit for home stuck in ward beds because they need a social services package. Yet, the Government is telling you that if only those lazy, greedy doctors would play the game, we could have our 7 day NHS!

typo correction:
Accept new contracts or TRY and find other employment

Of course the government will need to roster many more NHS staff to cover weekends.

Indeed. The problem is that I haven't heard that they have any plans to do so. It would involve recruiting more highly trained staff to operate specialist equipment and do lab work, and incentivising them to take these jobs.

But the question there is - why? If someone has a non-emergency condition requiring some sort of investigation, why can't it happen on a weekday?

JDs accepting the new contract would do fuck all to MRI scan availability at the weekends. We have many talents but operating an MRI is not one of them.

*Just so I can be clear I understand your arguments Old Farticus - you voted for a 7 day NHS service at your local dire facilities, staffed by self-inflated junior doctors, whilst at the same time paying for private healthcare and therefore wouldn't benefit from these additional services anyway, but don't believe there should be additional funding for them?

Because that is a really interesting viewpoint.*

I clearly said it was my relatives who were suffering at weekends on NHS wards. (I hope there is a toasty place in hell for the JD who said "we'll scan her on Monday if she's still here" in front of my dying grandmother - whatever that particular JD is paid, it's 100% too much). Is it unreasonable to expect everything not to grind to a halt for 2 days just because some doctors have problems getting a babysitter? The tail really seems to be wagging the dog. Mon to Fri is obsolete in most workplaces these days.

I also clearly said that 7-day working would also require other disciplines. Have they stopped teaching reading comprehension at medical school or are you all too busy waving placards and cheering? Just because other staff and technicians are needed is no reason NOT to start somewhere.

Why do so-called "professionals" condone this bad practice without calling it out for what it is?

Mon to Fri is obsolete in most workplaces these days.

Now that is rubbish.

AugustaFN
The government have to start somewhere.
The reason other "HCPs" ate so vocal in support of the strikes is that they know that soon they themselves will also be required to work across 7 days on rostered shifts at reduced premiums for weekend working.
The government were specifically elected with a promise to introduce 7 day NHS full working on page 1 of their manifesto.
The government have been trying to agree a new contract for 3 years apparently and have met the JD s representatives 75 times.
They have given a 13.5 % pay rise and various other concessions.

It really isn't Augusta - I have an office job and I am expected to work the hours I need to work to get the job done. That often means all-nighters and weekend work. The client is paying - and that is what they expect. My record is 9 weekends on the bounce - but that was quite tiring. I am well paid for doing so and mostly I enjoy it. It seems to me that doctors (at all levels) want the pay without the responsibility.

It's only in public sector fantasy-land where demand dissipates at 5pm on a Friday!

What the NHS doctors seem to forget is that they are the employees. The Owner of the organisation calls the tune... In this case that is the taxpayer.

But why do the government have to start somewhere? Why do we need 7 day working for non-urgent healthcare? The notion that every person who voted Conservative was desperate for it is fanciful in the extreme.

And the problem with other HCPs is that a number of them are in highly specialist occupations where there is a shortage anyway. It would, quite simply, be impossible to bully them into accepting 7 day working because they'd vote with their feet and couldn't be replaced.

The fact that you have a 7 day per week job does not automatically mean that the rest of the population does, Farticus.

Mon to Friday is obsolete in most work places It's not obsolete in Westminster where Jeremy cunt, Gideon and the pig fiddler work though is it

I have not suggested that "every person who voted Conservative was desparate for 7 day healthcare". However, it stands to reason that working people may prefer to schedule an appointment or have a scan at the weekend.

Most private practice consultants offer weekend and evening clinics. Because there is obviously demand.

It's fine to be pissed off about having to work weekends, but call it what it is - inconveninet for staff. Don't pretend that it wouldn't make life easier for some of us.

I am pregnant and in forrin land at the moment - just scheduled NIPT testing and a 12 week scan on a Saturday of my choosing. And both are free at the point of delivery. You are acting like dinosaurs!

No, Augusta but if you expect me to pay ever-more tax to fund the generous salary and pensions of people who work for the NHS, then you'll forgive me if I experience a little frisson of irritation at the fact that they only seem interested in working 1950's office hours....

Will you be SCANNED by a JD? No that'll be a sonographer and currently they're closed at weekends unless it's an emergency. The JD's contract WILL NOT improve the availability of scans.

In companies I have worked for you usually work until the job is done - and quite often also take the work home with you - and rarely also work most of the night (sometimes in the office) - generally for NO overtime pay at all, andif asked to pay overtime the company would point out that the employment contract says normal hours OR extra hours "where necessary to meet the needs of the business". Why do people put up with that? Because of poor job security in the private sector, and because private sector workers also have families and children - and have to pay for mortgages and childcare etc.