Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

Bertrand I agree that the white male has brought misery and distraction to large parts of the world and imposed incredible suffering upon people of other ethnicities. This is awful and the racism that was still acceptable 10-20 years ago in the media, advertising Hollywood and so on is utterly stomach churning. Does anyone remember (actually I believe magazines such as Vogue and Elle still do a bit of this) glossy ads where beautiful white models are surrounded by dark skinned tribal people in tribal gear? Seriously sick, something like this camiflage.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/isabel-lucas-vogue-australia-december-14.jpg i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/02/16/article-0-179D08D5000005DC-207_634x422.jpg

However, cultural relativism is just another 'white' post-colonial concept most emphatically practiced by.........you guessed it, white Brits, Americans, some Germans (not sure about the French). The idea that everything is culturally constructed was an interesting and, at a push, relevant phase but has now turned into an ideology, perversely reinforcing neo-colonial concepts of 'the other'.

Let's also remember that the Ottoman empire, Saudi Arabia, China, Russia / SU were not the most docile of regimes.

*destruction

I did say many of the problems, not all of them! And yes, I think the left in particular had been incredibly mealy mouthed in condemning Islamic terrorism, for example. And the right has cosied up to some utterly disgusting regimes in the name of expediency. Usually financial expediency.

And I also think that colonial guilt sometimes goes too far. But the West does have culpability and can't shirk it. If you're interested, I'll find the stuff I read about Rwanda. It was hideous and gripping in equal measure.

Helmut Newton French Vogue

Not the topic of this thread but these ads are so very wrong.
Yes I wouldn't mind reading more about Rwanda.

Swedish deputy PM would get along fine with Corbyn's gang.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3547291/Sweden-s-deputy-PM-sparks-outcry-describing-9-11-Twin-Towers-attack-September-11-accidents.html

Yes, I accept there's a level of western culpability in the ills of the world. In the 80s I was involved in the El Salvador HR Campaign and saw the USA's complicity in human rights abuses in SA. But here's the thing: in the circles I mixed in, which were the same I'll wager as Corbyn mixed in, every cause was in some way linked to the UK, the US or Israel. Now why was that I wonder? In the 60s when the anti Vietnam war movement was at its height, did any of those peaceniks in their Mao caps show any curiosity in the human shit storm that was happening in China at the same time? Did they fuck. The Yankee dollar wasn't complicit so what did they care?

Tell you what: look at Corbyn's voting record, that our Dear Leader, our proud vanguard of human rights. Support Cuba? Right there. Iran? Tell you what, I'll even show up on your tv station. Want an anti Israel rant? Check out Russia Today. This is what the Jewish community is concerned about, indeed their fucking terrified, because they know their security will be threatened if he came to power.

As for post colonial guilt, it's a crutch. Whatever its historical merits it's become the Left's equivalent of 'society made me do it'. It denies personal agency and infantilises entire communities. It's the racism of low expectations. Because, yer know, the jihadi pumping bullets into an 18 year old in a music hall is thinking 'I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for French colonialism in Algeria 50 years ago'.

As Nick Cohen says in his excellent book What's Left' in the end you have to pick a side, warts and all. It is my contention that Corbyn is taking Labour in a direction that is morally indefensible and is the polar opposite of the New Politics.

"As Nick Cohen says in his excellent book What's Left' in the end you have to pick a side, warts and all"

Ah. I think that's where the fundamental disagreement lies. I think that's such a dangerous sentiment. And isn't it rather what you're saying Corbyinites are doing- supporting him blindly and not challenging his "warts" enough?

*But it should also be possible to criticize the behaviour of the government of Israel without being automatically called anti Semitic.

How can this be achieved?*

Others have said it far better than me - Criticism of the Israeli government is not 'automatically' described as anti-Semitic. Now, do you think you and your fellow-travellers can listen and respond to genuine concerns about blatant, virulent anti-Semitism without automatically tying everything to your obsession with Israel and try to let go on occasion with the need to tie the experiences of Jewish people outside of Israel to it? Do you automatically link the experience of Muslims in Britain experiencing racism to the actions of Iran, the biggest practitioner of capital punishment in the world and link the two? Would it even occur to you to do that?

"Do you automatically link the experience of Muslims in Britain experiencing racism to the actions of Iran, the biggest practitioner of capital punishment in the world and link the two? Would it even occur to you to do that?"

No. I don't. And it wouldn't. I also object very strongly to any suggestion that criticizing the human rights record of Islamic states, and the cultural practices of some Muslim people is racist.

So why the double-standard? Why do you jump in to a discussion about anti-Semitism to push it straight in an 'anti-Zionist' direction?

And while you're here, I might as well ask (apologies if you've done this before and I've missed it), what exactly is your definition of 'anti-Zionist' and what do you think a 'Zionist' is?

I'd rather this didn't go round in circles. But, hey ho.

I didn't, you see.

What I did in response to the OP was to try to differentiate between the tweets, which were basic, ignorant, hideous anti semitism and which the party has a process for dealing with, and the remarks of Corbyn's brother, which were more complicated, and, on the surface at least, a criticism of Israeli government policy. The OP seemed to me to be conflating the two, when it seems to me that there are two very different discussions to be had.

And I am absolutely sure that you know what Zionism means.

There is possibly no clear definition on zionism and anti-zionism but it is evident that people (not all but too many) who criticise Israel frequently make anti-semitic remarks.

No, the definitions have become extremely muddled over time, which I've discussed in previous posts. Some people simply use it to mean 'Jews.' One definition of Zionism is simply the right for Jewish people to have a homeland, so on that basis by being 'anti-Zionist' you'd be saying that you believed they did not. I'd be grateful if you gave me your definition if you feel it's far from that.

""but it is evident that people (not all but too many) who criticise Israel frequently make anti-semitic remarks."

Yes. But criticism of Israel is not, in itself, anti Semitic. Somebody who is anti Semitic will undoubtedly also criticise Israel. The reverse does not hold.

I thought I was the one supposed to drag the thread back to Zionism...........

Ah. I think that's where the fundamental disagreement lies. I think that's such a dangerous sentiment.*

No, that's not what I mean at all and I think you know it. Maajid Nawaz recently wrote in the Times that the defining battle of the age is open societies vs closed societies. You choose universal values or you choose primitive social conservatism. The bbc/Guardian Left won't make that choice for a range of reasons that hv been amply explored in this thread.

But if you want to persuade yourself the problem lies with those who are increasingly anxious about the Left's 'nothing to see here, not in my name' positioning to a range of liberal encroachments then, heh, knock yourself out.

Marmite- I'm finding this a fascinating discussion and I'm learning and thinking a lot. You are obviously very angry with me and I'm genuinely not sure why. Would you rather I didn't respond to your posts?

And I am absolutely sure that you know what Zionism means.

Ok I'll say it. What is your definition of Zionism and anti-Zionism? It would be great if you could do that because it would clear up a lot of misunderstanding.

I thought I was the one supposed to drag the thread back to Zionism.

Given that you made the first response to the OP, immediately throwing Zionism in, then it's a reasonable assumption to make. It's also perfectly reasonable to ask a non-trick question as to how you define your own 'anti-Zionism' since you're so keen on it.

And regarding Piers Corbyn, I don't think there's a great deal of nuance in tweeting Isis/Israel conspiracy theories.

Fair point BR. I'll try to keep my tone more temperate in future.

I'm happy to give my understanding of Zionism- so long as everyone else does too.

Who do you define as everyone else?? The whole of Mumsnet?

I'm happy to go with the right to a Jewish homeland - and I suppose given that there's one in existence now, the right for it to continue. Discussions around borders and behaviour to take place elsewhere.

I'm not sure how many people you expect to give their definition before you will, but I assure you it's not a trick question. I can see you really don't want to answer it & I don't understand why.

Posted a bit soon there - as I asked you specifically what you mean by anti-Zionism rather than Zionism - if you agree with my definition of Zionism (and obviously you may not, but I have no clue so far) then if you say you are anti-Zionist you believe that Israel should not exist. Is that the case and you simply don't want to articulate it, or do you define it completely differently?