Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

Wow, for a moment yesterday I thought we were allowed to discuss anti Semitism without Bertrand telling us that she had something far, far more important for us to discuss.

Two flounces but she's still here, sigh.

Do you remember your everyday sexism thread (that got deleted) today you said the people saying 'ooh it's not a problem' was a real reflection of sexism in society.

Try replacing everyday sexism with anti Semitism and you are that sexist twat you hate.

I have no difficulty understanding why British Jews might feel a tad defensive when the topic of Israel is mentioned by passionate lefties during dinner parties. Let's remember the coldblooded, systematic murder of millions of Jewish people ended just 71 years ago. Millions of human beings systematically degraded, abused, incarcerated, experimented on and killed with ingenious methods such as gas showers. If this had happened to your family and if you know you or family in Israel are living in constant danger from the Arab world and Iran, countries wishing to wipe you out with nuclear arms, you also might feel a tad sensitive and put upon when people you consider friends discuss their anti-zionist views without much though for the wider context or people present who may be affected by this. This attitude is so ignorant and smug. Note that I have a critical view on the concept of Israel as well as various Israeli governments. I have also met many Israelis, especially whilst travelling abroad who I have found boisterous, bordering on aggressive in their overall attitudes (probably due to extreme experiences in the army) so I am not unaware of the myriad's of issues related to Israel, the history of the Jewish people and the dire situation for Palestinians. Saying this, anti-semtisim wrapped up as sweet support for disenfranchised Palestinians is increasingly acceptable amongst otherwise decent people.

What I have never understood is how come that the Left voted for Tony Blair a second time, despite his blatant lies and despite the terrible harm he has effected through the war in Iraq. I was at the anti-war marches myself and everyone knows how much of a mistake the war on WMD was (we are still living the aftermath) yet the good, good people on the left wanted more of this man and his party. Isn't this rather hypocritical?? This shows lefties were happy to support a politician who instigates an 'unjustified' and illegal war during which many people died and due to which many people continue to die. Double standards.

Helmet- I've just noticed that you only post on this thread when I do. Not sure what's going on there. But please could you challenge me on things I have actually said, not things you have made up.

"What I have never understood is how come that the Left voted for Tony Blair a second time," I find this difficult as well. I actually can't remember what I was thinking at the time. I suspect that some of it might have been to do with the recent memory of the Tories and how awful they were and not having anyone
else credible to vote for......

Helmet- I've just noticed that you only post on this thread when I do.

You last posted Friday evening. I next posted on Sunday morning. Is that acceptable? I did try to steer the conversation away from the Bertrands anti-zionist show but alas, as ever it is not to be.

Am I allowed to post tonight?

I am a foreigner. When I first arrived in London 15 years ago, I was really struck by the attitude to Israel and towards Jewish people. I remarked on it to my moderate, non-political, English husband who was quite surprised I would see it this way.

In that first year, I was permanently put off the Guardian, and finally the Labour Party. Im coming into it with fresh eyes, and I haven't been on the journey that Britain has before 2000, so o don't want to be too harsh. But pandering to the bigotry, and hatred of one minority group against another is very unattractive.

For context, I am an agnostic with Catholic patents.

Wow, for a moment yesterday I thought we were allowed to discuss anti Semitism without Bertrand telling us that she had something far, far more important for us to discuss.

But please could you challenge me on things I have actually said, not things you have made up.

I think the 9 quotes from Bertrand below, all from this thread, are sufficient to demonstrate that Helmet was not making things up here. Apologies for not including the context, but that would have made this post impossibly long.

1. "But it must remain possible to be openly anti Zionist without being called anti Semitic."
2. "Do you think that I, and people like me should be able to be openly anti Zionist without being accused of anti semitism?"
3. "People become afraid to speak out about the government of israel's policies because they are afraid of being labelled as anti Semitic. And opposition becomes impossible."
4. "But there must be a clear divide between criticism of the state of Israel and of Zionists and anti semitism. And shutting down the former with accusations of the latter is unacceptable."
5. So are you saying it is impossible to be anti Zionist without also being anti Semitic?
6. "And it really doesn't help to try and silence people by automatically equating criticism of the government of the state of Israel with anti semitism."
7. "So basically what you are saying is that people like me, who are not anti Semitic, but who are anti Zionist should just shut up. Great."
8. "And the debate just can't continue if the fact that many people are anti Zionism without being anti Semitic can't be accepted."
9. "But it should also be possible to criticize the behaviour of the government of Israel without being automatically called anti Semitic."

I stand by every one of those quotations. If you think that makes me anti Semitic then my case is proved. Discussion is impossible.

I notice that you fail to c&p the many times I have condemned anti semitism, and tried, obviously unsuccessfully, to explain my position.

If you think I am anti Semitic, then please report me to MNHQ for adjudication.

Bertrand

Did I say I think you are anti-semitic? FFS! You really, really need to stop putting words in people's mouths. What Helmet said in the comment I quoted was that you keep "telling us there is something far, far more important to discuss"

Those quotes are simply evidence to support that: evidence of how, in a discussion that is supposed to be about anti-semitism on the left, you have repeatedly tried to push the discussion in the direction of talking, instead, about 'anti-zionism not being the same as anti-semitism'.

If you think that makes me anti Semitic then my case is proved.

I will just add that this reference to "your case" seems to be additional evidence that, rather than trying to hold a serious discussion of the topic in hand, you have instead been trying to "prove" something about people identifying anti-zionism with anti-semitism, and how that supposedly 'makes discussion impossible'.

Lookingagain

In that first year, I was permanently put off the Guardian, and finally the Labour Party. Im coming into it with fresh eyes, and I haven't been on the journey that Britain has before 2000, so o don't want to be too harsh. But pandering to the bigotry, and hatred of one minority group against another is very unattractive.

That's a really interesting comment. Imagining how it looks to someone seeing it "with fresh eyes" gives an insight into the situation.

fathomjournal.org/the-corbyn-left-the-politics-of-position-and-the-politics-of-reason/

This is a link to a really interesting article. Slightly wider subject matter than the OP but definitely germane. It is the first time I'd heard of the 'Livingstone Formula', i.e treating accusations of antisemitism as worse than actual antisemitism.

Marmite That article is absolutely fascinating: really clear and careful analysis. I'm only halfway through it, but would really encourage other people to read it.

That is a good article Marmite, I have reposted it in the Webchat with Sophie Walker three www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/2617026-Webchat-with-Sophie-Walker-leader-of-the-Womens-Equality-Party-and-London-Mayor-candidate-Tuesday-19-April-at-noon?watched=1&msgid=60565639#60565639 as I feel the attitude the leader of the Women's Equality Party who is currently running for mayor in London was not dissimilar to Corbyn's - not in relation to Jewish people (though who knows) but in relation to women's rights.

I just had a sobering thought. If Brexit become reality and if Corbyn gets elected, what would happen to our country, our economy, our security?

I hope it's ok to quote from the article you posted marmite

"The blood of those on the anti-imperialist left only really boils when it perceives white people, or people that it constructs as white, to be the villains. The left can be so tied to this emotional framework that it comes to feel as though all bad things in the world are the work of white people. Sometimes other people do bad things but, at root, it is white people who are found to be responsible. In this way, a part of the left finds itself stumbling into a worldview in which the only significant social agents are white people and all others are constructed as infantilised victims."

Very well articulated, this is what I think is also going in regards to downplaying Muslim extremism.

and...

"The Jews of the Holocaust still symbolise absolute powerlessness, the oppressed; but the Jews who survived the Holocaust, particularly those who found sanctuary in Israel or the US, fit better into another ready-made way of thinking about Jews: disproportionate power [...] This is the old ambivalence of the left: are the Jews glamorously powerless or are they menacingly all too powerful? Are they oppressed or oppressors?"

Excellent paragraph.

It is a good article - a tough read though! :)

Did you see that today there is the first international conference on Online antisemitism. #ISOA16 I think the author of that article, David Hirsh is speaking.

Thanks ansel, Helmet and Kesstrel.

It's the principle of The Politics of Position that I find the most persuasive. I made the mistake of surfing Twitter for a while during the Labour leadership election and ... wow, just wow. Once Corbyn was positioned as the messiah that was it. 'What would Jeremy Do?' FFS.

The other reason I think this stuff gets such a free ride is a kind of strangulated very British reticence. My Islingtonian friends are never angry about anything. They're always 'uncomfortable'. One must never 'rush to judgment' (technique commonly deployed after terrorist atrocity). One must discern the 'underlying narrative' (almost always linked to something the West has done).

The journalist Nick Cohen calls this the new politics of appeasement. The longer we get by in the uk without an atrocity the more disassociated we become from the real horror of this, which will eventually come our way in the most virulent form. And we'll keep on saying it's Blair's fault or Bush's fault (which is another way of saying it's all our fault) or Israel's fault. And then the people, not The People but the real Joes, the men and women who lives in the new towns, who are plumbers and insurance salesmen, the people labour doesn't like to talk about, will get really angry.

What was that that someone, Pastor Neumann I think, said? 'First they came for the Jews and I said nothing ....'

The left can be so tied to this emotional framework that it comes to feel as though all bad things in the world are the work of white people.

Yep. I stopped reading the Guardian because of this kind of cultural relativist nonsense.

"Yep. I stopped reading the Guardian because of this kind of cultural relativist nonsense."

Me too, I cannot even bring myself to look at their website anymore.

The cultural relativism started with post colonial guilt-surely it's impossible to deny that many of the problems in the world's trouble spots started with western imperialism? I remember reading that the groups involved in the Rwandan genocide were actually created by colonial administrators setting out arbitrary borders and assigning people randomly to the areas they invented........

Like a moth to a flame
Yes I'd agree post colonial guilt is a factor in cultural relativism. But surely you'd agree it has gone too far? An example is the view taken by some on the progressive left that colonialism has never left us and is the sole pre determinant of all oppression/poverty/inequality worldwide. In any case if you accept your premise that all ills stem from imperialism how do you explosion India's stellar economic and social profession compared to the relatively poor performance of most African countries?

As for Rwanda: silly me, there was I thinking a tribal genocide occurred. Your imputation of western responsibility speaks volumes.

"Explain"