Labour and anti-semitism

[LeLaluifleur]

Apologies for DF links but ignoring the lowbrow style 'journalism' for a minute, I am perturbed about these reports.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3531852/Labour-councillor-20-suspended-claims-called-Hitler-greatest-man-history-latest-anti-Semitic-scandal-hit-Corbyn-s-party.html#comments

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3532042/Ignorant-Godless-Hateful-Corbyn-s-contempt-Jews-disgrace-withering-attack-Labour-leader-donor-backed-party-400-000-2015-Election.html

I like Corbyn a little bit but judge his cavalier attitude to anti-semitism harshly.

Has anti-semitism become cool among labour supporters or something? What is being done about the anti-semitism coming from some labour politicians and how to deal with the Islamist flavour of anti-semitism as displayed by Labour councillor Aysegul Gurbuz (and others) for examples who posted statements such as this on twitter :

"Ed Miliband is Jewish. He will never become prime minister of Britain."
"Adolf Hitler was praised as the ‘greatest man in history".

Inflammatory? It's fact, dear.

What's a fact dear?

I don't debate with liberal-minded people at the forefront of my mind, Kesstrel. These are my opinions and beliefs and I don't feel a compulsion to begin every contribution to a thread discussing anti-Semitism with, 'I'm not a Jew but...'

As a Christian I believe my health & happiness is God-given; my misfortunes and travails too. I believe in the prophesies of the Old Testament; Israel are God's chosen people, but I do not believe this makes them a superior race in terms of the rest of humanity. They are God's people in a way that I am not, but that is a complex theological discussion I am not willing to have with atheists.

WOW! I stepped away from this thread over a day ago as it seemed to be sliding far off topic into a discussion about Israel and then onto the perceived superiority of certain groups. WTF? Well I guess I'm out, I'm sorry to see yet another thread hijacked by posters with agendas.

I'll probably keep checking into this thread for a while in case anyone cares to try bringing it back on to the original topic.

Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism.

Rainbunny, I'm sorry you felt you had to step away. I've been accused of being a supremacist and believing the Jews are a superior race when in fact all I have said is that the Old Testament declares them to be God's chosen people and that they have superior IQ - as first alluded to by Kesstrel.

Do come back to the discussion.

Thirtynineweeks I'd appreciate it if you would stop misrepresenting what I have said. I did not say that "Jews" have "superior" IQ, I said that "Ashkenazi (European) Jews have exceptionally high average intelligence". I have already corrected you several times on this point. And I certainly did not say that the Old Testament declare them to be God's chosen people.

Rainbunny I agree. To try to move the discussion back to why and how anti-semitism exists on the left, here are two quotes from a very left wing poster in CIF (the Guadian). What do people make of the ideas they contain?

"Those of us who did, and still do, support the need and justification for a Jewish state, namely Israel, find ourselves bitterly disappointed at the way that state all too frequently has acted in ways which we criticise when done by any other state, but find particularly disappointing when undertaken by Israel, whose citizens know, at first or second hand, about the effects of state cruely and injustice and about the pernicious and dangerous effects of blanket racist condemnation."

"Many Jews are assimilated. Many, you wouldn't even know, many are just ordinary citizens with nothing separating them. But there are groups of Jews who quite deliberately keep themselves separate, who consider themselves 'God's chosen people' and by implication - a la Freedland - therefore better than the host population, from which they carefully keep themselves distinct. They avoid marrying outside the group. Thus they single themselves out racially and by religion. That is at best unhelpful; it does not promote understanding or equality, and certainly does little to further the cause of acceptance."

I agree Rainbunny, it's taken a strange twist and now God has wormed his/her way into the argument. Not the right place, it's beginning to sound like creationist thread.

I am disappointed, I had hoped we'd effectively address the issues within the Labour Party and the left in general, but all we got were contradictory posts full of ideology and devoid of logic or indeed any thought, the supremacy of races (a very dangerous argument) and now the sky fairy.

The Labour Party is going in so many conflicting directions, desperate to appease and not offend, and in doing so is letting down the very people it was set up to defend:

The White working classes who are being asked to yield what little they have and accept without question more migration in their midst;
Women who are being thrown under a bus in an effort to curry favour with a certain section of the electorate;
Ditto Jewish people, Marx would be turning in his grave, as well as a lot of Jewish luminaries from the earlier periods of the Labour Party.

We are not talking about Israel per se but the Labour party's stance on Israel, based on the comments of its current leader, who supports a terrorist organisation over a democracy. Israel, for all its many faults, is still pretty much the only functioning democracy in the ME.

Many Jews are assimilated. Many, you wouldn't even know, many are just ordinary citizens with nothing separating them. But there are groups of Jews who quite deliberately keep themselves separate, who consider themselves 'God's chosen people' and by implication - a la Freedland - therefore better than the host population, from which they carefully keep themselves distinct. They avoid marrying outside the group. Thus they single themselves out racially and by religion. That is at best unhelpful; it does not promote understanding or equality, and certainly does little to further the cause of acceptance."

I don't think that is restricted to a Jews. The difference is these are ultra Orthodox Jews generally and not a relatively large percentage of the Jewish population, unlike some other religions. Yet Labour and the left accept this behaviour from other areas of the population and whoever dares criticise is shouted down and called racist.

also the Jewish people get on with it and don't cause trouble unlike certain other groups in the UK so Jeremy Corbyn should not be alienating them.

Jewish people do intermarry sometimes and they don't try to murder their own children if they do not do as they are told.

Interesting quotes, kesstrel. I think the first one sums up quite well some of the feelings I have. I am very old, was brought up in a very left wing family. My parents were very supportive and excited about the establishment of the state of Israel, my much older brothers and their friends went to kibbutzim for working holidays- the idea of Israel as a new country doing things differently and better was very real. The growing sense of disappointment over the years was/is also very real.

It would be perfectly possible for the state of Iseael, if it could speak, to say "Well,nyou chose to adopt me as your poster child of the future, it's not up to me fulfill your expectations" Which is true. But I could equally say "Absolutly. But it's also not up to me to support you in whatever you do"

The second is very difficult. Obviously there are religious groups from all faiths who keep themselves separate, and that is generally considered to be a bad thing. Muslims are always being told to "integrate" and I don't think there can be many people who think, for example, that there should be Islamic state schools (maybe people do? Certainly in the circles I move in they don't) I don't really know what I think about the very small minority of religious people of all faiths who want to keep themselves separate- part of me thinks that obviously they should be left alone to get on with it- another part thinks that integration is obviously the way forward. An elephant in the room is that these "exclusive" groups often do not have a good record in their treatment of women, and offer no choice to children and young people except commitment or exclusion.

Complicated, innit?

The left has for a long time been confused on the issue of "preserving minority and indigenous cultures" and the "right to self-determination" of various peoples, vs. integration. But over the last 50 years or so, on the further reaches of the left, the former has had the definite upper hand. And in my opinion, where the anti-semitism comes in here is in the double standards. Try substituting the word "Muslims" for "Jews" in the second paragraph, and there is no way that poster would ever post such a comment.

i would place a bet on the people here very quickly bringing israel into the equation when discussing 'antisemitism in the UK' are the same ones who get quickly defensive and deny that the anti israel situation is in any way connected to anti semitism . you coudln't make this up

kesstrel Those are interesting quotes. I'd make the following observations:

1. We should not hold any group to higher standards because of their past history of oppression (I find this bordering on racist actually).

1. There is nothing wrong, per se, with a refusal to "assimilate" (though it depends what precisely you mean by assimilate - obviously incoming groups have to comply with local laws, but they don't have to adopt local cultural practices). The problem arises when a group consistently positions itself as "separate", to the extent that it fosters some of the supremacist attitudes that have been expressed on this thread. It's difficult to demand that your group is treated as equal if you consistently deny that right to others.

This observation btw is not directed at any specific culture or religion; it's about exceptionalism in all its guises.

"Try substituting the word "Muslims" for "Jews" in the second paragraph, and there is no way that poster would ever post such a comment."

Really? There is always talk about the fact that some Muslims don't/don't want to integrate. About the dangers of mosques and madrasahs radicalising young people-the evils of Muslim governors in schools......

Could we possibly have some sort of agreement that we don't call each other names while we discuss this? It's deeply tedious. Can we assume good intent?

i agree with misti. lets not beat about the bush. both elements of jews and muslims keep themselves to themselves and thus create, unintentionally, this 'ghetto' atmostphere to outsiders. the big difference is that there is a MUCH larger muslim population now here in the uk so it gets more noticed

It would be perfectly possible for the state of Iseael, if it could speak, to say "Well, you chose to adopt me as your poster child of the future, it's not up to me fulfill your expectations" Which is true. But I could equally say "Absolutly. But it's also not up to me to support you in whatever you do"

But I would argue that your final sentence is a red herring. No sensible person is asking for those on the left to support Israel whatever it does. The choice is not a black and white in this way.

Furthermore, there are actually a large number of countries that have failed in their attempts to adopt a socialist approach to 'doing things better'. Some of them, like China, continue to oppress their populations and to take an economically colonialist and exploitative approach to poor countries. None of those countries have been in the position of being a tiny state with a population recently subjected to devastating genocide, and completely surrounded by hostile countries, some of whom declared their intention of wiping it off the map, and indeed joined up to attack it, and have been unrelenting in their hostility ever since.

I would argue that the focus on being "disappointed" in Israel by some on the left, given these circumstances, is disproportionate and unreasonable, and thus represents a double standard.

Really? There is always talk about the fact that some Muslims don't/don't want to integrate. About the dangers of mosques and madrasahs radicalising young people-the evils of Muslim governors in schools......

But not by the particular strand of the left I am talking about here. Which is why my point was that that particular poster (and by implication those who shared her views) would never post in that way about Muslims.

that it fosters some of the supremacist attitudes that have been expressed on this thread.

I feel it's important to point out, once again, that those attitudes were not being expressed by a Jewish person In that context, calling them "supremacist" is, I think, inappropriate. They reflected a particular interpretation of Christian theology.

Perhaps I should also make clear that I am not Jewish myself (pure Viking blood on both sides!)

"But not by the particular strand of the left I am talking about here. Which is why my point was that that particular poster (and by implication those who shared her views) would never post in that way about Muslims."

Ah, OK. I don't know which particular poster you are talking about. So not much point me commenting then. Speaking for myself, I have concerns about exclusive communities based on faith- whatever faith we are talking about.

Bertrand Sorry for not being clear. I was referring to the second of the two paragraphs in my post of 8:13, where I quoted a left wing regular commenter on CIF at the Guardian, in order to see what people thought of her views, and how they might relate to possible anti-semitism on the left.

Ah, right. I think I've already commented on that then! It's easy to lose track.

i agree with misti. lets not beat about the bush. both elements of jews and muslims keep themselves to themselves and thus create, unintentionally, this 'ghetto' atmostphere to outsiders. the big difference is that there is a MUCH larger muslim population now here in the uk so it gets more noticed

Actually that comment was very explicitly NOT intended to be confined to "Jews and Muslims"! In the UK the Jewish and Muslim population is far more assimilated than, say, the British expat population in many countries.

kesstrel I don't think it matters who is making statements of exceptionalism. Some of the views on this thread are on the nutty fringe and rarely expressed in public, but the point remains. Positioning one's group as "different" and "apart" (usually with a subtext that involves explicit criticism of others' morals or lifestyles or intellectual capacity or whatever) is not consistent with expectations that others must always treat you as equal. It's wanting your cake and eating it I'm afraid.