UK woman convicted of abortion

[Veterinari]

Full story here www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-given-suspended-sentence-for-having-abortion-in-the-uk-a6968676.html

Very sad. Is there a will in NI to update legislation on this issue? As it stands everyone loses

gone, Muphry's law strikes again! Try "vice versa."

gone Hence me stating that these are NI facts, and asking if anyone else had comparison figures in the previous post.

But just you keep on trying to trip people up, sure.

Didn't freakonomics do an interesting correlation of data re: abortion in America and crime rates all connected with poverty and life opportunity?

Toothbrush Yes, they found a correlation between the introduction of legal abortions and a drop in the crime rate approx 15-20 years later.

Yes, funny how a steep drop in the numbers of unwanted children have led to a significant drop in crime rates 15-20 years later.

You are quite transparently looking for statistics hoping to find some kind of evidence that NI has worse poverty than anywhere else and (hopefully) some kind of evidence that this will be traceable back to the weird abortion legislation. Objective inquiry is one thing but objective this is not. And although I don't have the statistics you're looking for, as a resident of Northern Ireland I think you're going to be disappointed. You will find it very, very hard to say that our community is collectively suffering from disproportionately large surplus of unwanted children. Because, as has been mentioned repeatedly upthread, getting an abortion on the mainland is doesn't take much more initiative than going to Newcastle for the footie/a hen night. Which virtually everyone here has done at some point.

Depending on when you're going and relative to the cost/amount of time that folk in London seem to spend trying to get anywhere, it might actually be quicker.

Because, as has been mentioned repeatedly upthread, getting an abortion on the mainland is doesn't take much more initiative than going to Newcastle for the footie/a hen night.

If you have the money of course.

Baring in mind that NI DOES have some of the highest rates of poverty in the country. Maybe not the highest. But then women in other poor areas don't have to suddenly budget for an abortion, should they have the misfortune to find themselves in that situation either.

Poverty to the extend that families have had to cut back on food, skip meals, children going without shoes, missing school trips, not having a warm coat in winter and have had to borrow money for essentials like food and clothes.

Yep, 'initiative' is what you need to get to England.

Yes its true, I can't draw a link between a prohibiting abortions directly causing poverty.

I however can say that women in poverty can't afford abortions though, with a certain degree of certainty and in those cases if women do get into debt 'using their initiative' is going the cycle of poverty even harder to get out of, if they are at the level of poverty mentioned above.

Thus the law is disproportionately affecting the poor more than the rich, because they clearly lack 'initiative'.

I know exactly what it's like to live in poverty in Northern Ireland, believe me. However you're still on a loser if you're planning to make out that women here are suffering more materially than in other parts of the country. Bar the bombs, and they rarely kill anyone these days, Northern Ireland is a much better place to be hard-up than most of the mainland. Not saying there isn't poverty, not at all. But there's a lot more in other places where abortion is legal.

Re initiative, you're making a bit of a leap there. No, it isn't fair about having to pay for a flight, but the point I was making - which I think you knew - is that accessing the mainland is an experience that most people in NI are already know how to do, in the way that everyone in England knows how to get to London from their respective corners of the country.

The impact that this extra cost will have on women, and the consequences of a child for the relatively few who couldn't make it, is separate and a relatively minor issue in comparison with the vast province-wide consequences you're hoping for. Bearing in mind it's also a more conservative culture and while abortion is common, it's still not quite the option it would be elsewhere.

No gone I have personally heard people demonise homeless single parents and then say that pregnant women should have no choices. I'm not making assumptions and I'm far from a bigot.

My opinion isnt that crime and homelessness would reduce if abortion was legal in Ireland.
"Pro life" and anti choice don't support these families and if they are religious they tell you you are going to hell

What's the answer keep it illegal and risk the deaths of women keeping our heads firmly buried in the sand?

No, I've already said that wouldn't be my answer.

I think we've all personally heard plenty of demonising and bigotry. But don't assume pro-choicers don't care about other women. It's often not the case.

Do 'pro choice' support these people? I haven't noticed. Churches do, however. It's very very rare for a Christian to announce to anyone that they're going to hell. I very much doubt you're speaking from experience and if you are, that it was one Christian speaking amongst many you have known who haven't been so insensitive.

Ha churches support these people, you are clearly living in a parallel universe... I wouldn't trust any religion with my toe nail!

I don't care if you think it's rare for a Christian to announce someone is going to hell. I have personal experience. I was attending a Marie stopes clinic in Dublin under the name reproductive choices there were two women outside they approached me and said " if I accepted jesus' forgiveness I would enter heaven when I die"
I'm not a catholic, Christian etc so it had no effect on me.
I spoke with the nurse at the clinic and she told me how these women had convinced a young obviously vulnerable girl to go with them and have a "scan" they told her she was 24 weeks and it was too late for an abortion. Luckily she went back to Marie stopes and it turned out she was only 8 weeks pregnant.
Sick people who don't give a shit. They're brain washed by religion.
They can keep their loving god to themselves

Do 'pro choice' support these people? I haven't noticed. Churches do, however. It's very very rare for a Christian to announce to anyone that they're going to hell. I very much doubt you're speaking from experience and if you are, that it was one Christian speaking amongst many you have known who haven't been so insensitive.

There are many so-called Christians who are judgemental bigots who use religion as an excuse and something to hide behind. We have all met them. Christians are just like any group of people, some are good caring people others aren't. But enforcing your beliefs on others who don't share them cannot ever be seen as 'supportive'. That is the problem with pro lifers, it is fine to not agree with abortion and think life begins at conception but it is wrong to expect others to agree with you and enforce your beliefs on them.

It's very rare for a Christian to tell someone they're going to hell.

Ha ha ha ha ha.

I go to church regularly and it's mentioned every time I'm there.

About once a week I get leaflets through my door from the local gospel hall telling me that I'm going to hell. My husband has had anonymous, personalised handwritten letters posted to him, telling him that he's going hell.

Christianity in N Ireland is all about hell. (Well, Protestant Christianity is, I have no personal experience of Catholicism).

And here's the problem. The reason evangelical Christians want to stop anyone else doing things that they disapprove of is that they believe that they will go to hell too, if they allow other people to live their lives in a way they disapprove of. They believe it is their duty to make everyone live their way.

Of course christians tell heathens they are going to hell- it;s the central core of their faith. The only way to salvation is through jesus, it's the main christian message.
Implicit in that view is that the rest of us will go to hell. We will go to hell anyway, abortion or not.

Or have I missed something.

The reason evangelical Christians want to stop anyone else doing things that they disapprove of is that they believe that they will go to hell too, if they allow other people to live their lives in a way they disapprove of

I've met countless evangelical Christians and I never knew that! It explains so much. For example why my DD was told by her ex-friend from school that while she liked her, she would like her much more if she were a Christian (age13 at the time).

Witnessing, evangelism or spreading the word of god underlies a lot of christian thinking, some branches of christianity take it more seriously than others.

""So shall My word be which goes forth from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, without accomplishing what I desire, and without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it," (Isaiah 55:11)."

He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Mark 16:15 |

Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
Matthew 28:19-20 may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
Matthew 5:15-16

Because, as has been mentioned repeatedly upthread, getting an abortion on the mainland is doesn't take much more initiative than going to Newcastle for the footie/a hen night.

Fuck right off with this statement. Have you missed almost every post I've written about how hard it was to travel? I was out of pocket for 6 months after my abortion. I had to move all my direct debits for that month I travelled. I housesat so I didn't have to buy and eat my own food. I fucking wish I could afford a trip to Liverpool on a jolly.

And pro-choicers did support me. They helped pay for my procedure. They were at the other end of the phone when I needed them. The kindness of strangers got me through one of the worst moments of my life.

A Christian's role should be, and often is, to show love and offer support. It's not always easy to do that and it's often not done brilliantly, but it would be a mistake to say that churches are only, or even primarily interested in telling people they are going to hell. And that was the issue-if Christians only say 'you're going to hell'.

Local churches in my area do everything from hospital visiting, delivering hot meals, advice with debt issues, programmes to support lone parents, supporting foster parents, essential skills for employment, addiction support groups... That's a brief sample. Not a complete list. And in none of those activities have I noticed out heard of hell being mentioned.

To those who have said Christians try to influence others because they believe they'll go to hell if they don't, this is bollocks. There is no verse in the Bible saying this. Christians are much more likely to think they are failing in their responsibilities if there is local suffering through poverty, hence church's involvement in food banks.

gone

I understand what you are saying but if people have had run ins with over excited christians then that will have coloured their experiences

The fact that all the christians you know are lovely and wouldnt say boo to a goose doesnt mean that all christians are like that....as you say they are just people

And I do get that, and feel let down by the way done Christians behave. Precious life in particular in their response to the woman whose unborn baby had the same condition as very's up thread. They could only say 'hospice care...it's an NHS matter' when asked what they thought that woman should do. However. If you were to pull out all the faith based services supporting women in the province of NI, there would be a great deal of suffering because so much is being done. It's hypocritical of pro choicers to call Christians hypocrites, and only interested in judgement, when there is a good chance they aren't putting themselves out there to the same extent at all. It is Christians who are sitting in a cold mobile in the centre of town on a Saturday night ready to offer support to anyone feeling threatened, suicidal, or unable to get home safely. I would call that significant and loving, and it's not being done to save the Christians souls because there are plenty of Christians who are happy not to do that and don't feel obliged. They do genuinely care about women.

You can say that my statement about evangelicals believing they need to force their beliefs on people in order to save themselves is bollocks, and I also am not aware of a specific verse of the Bible that states that, but that certainly is how many of them interpret it. I've sat through many many church services where it has been preached that you can only be a Christian if you convert others as well, and that failure to do so means you are not a true follower, there can be no such thing as having a private faith.

Some people choose to interpret that as 'I must change others or else I go to hell along with them'.

Why are you a church goer then treacle, if you think so little of Christianity, if you don't mind saying? I think you said you were.

But it is also non-Christians working in soup kitchens, on Samaritan helplines, and in charities like Shelter, Mind and Crisis. I don't think Christians can claim any particular virtue in that, and I really don't think it can be claimed that non-Christians aren't putting themselves out there to the same extent.

Gone, you are so perfectly demonstrating the problem with Christianity having any seat at the table on issues such as this.

You fundamentally believe in intelligent design and someone, somewhere having a plan for us, and therefore doggedly follow a doctrine, which depending on denomination, may or may not be warped to suit the ideals of the particularly priest or leader
You summed it up with "Christians are much more likely to think they are failing in their responsibilities"

The problem, the HUGE problem, is those responsibilities are based on blindly following someone else's rigid rules, written and codified in a time that has no relevance to modern living.

I don't believe in these rules. My responsibilities come from a place of compassion towards the human, for hatred of suffering, for doing the right thing. Yours are frankly, 'computer says no' with a bit of spin on the most hateful, illogical and downright weird stuff in order not to alienate everyone. You don't let compassion creep into your stance or thinking when you can blindly parrot the views of your church instead, and even if you did, and the two come into conflict, doctrine wins out every time

Just like Fuckwit Smyth can't give a coherent answer as to what should happen to a baby with FFA other than 'god has a plan', you can't explain to us why a clump of cells is more worthy a life than a fully functioning, adult woman, beyond 'bible doesn't like it'.

Some other idiot on this thread talked about 'denying a child their natural lifespan', as if there is some predetermined and set time that your god has granted us.
Obviously there is zero logic in this, because while medicine allows me to make a decision not to subject my baby to a short life of unspeakable suffering by terminating a FFA pregnancy, it also gives me the opportunity to treat my child for cancer, or have an emergency c-section to save the baby, or use a neonatal ICU for a 26 week prem. Which means surely that giving my baby any sort of lifesaving treatment is 'denying them a natural lifespan' so much as taking the decision to abort to spare them or me any suffering.