UK woman convicted of abortion

[Veterinari]

Full story here www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woman-given-suspended-sentence-for-having-abortion-in-the-uk-a6968676.html

Very sad. Is there a will in NI to update legislation on this issue? As it stands everyone loses

gone I'm very confused by your last post. So you're pro choice?

So one of the reasons you flounced is because you think people's use of English isn't good enough for you to stay?

Have you read your own posts, gone?

Thanks veryproud - really helpful

Obviously, some women are seriously pressured by partners
and/or by and financial/other circumstances to have an abortion.
That pressure is not their fault, and they can feel very desperate as a result.
But is abortion a real solution?
Abortion denies the unborn child their right to live their normal lifespan,
It is a massive breach of trust by society towards both the woman and the developing child.
The woman needs the immediate and ongoing support of society not a quick way out.

The parents can be deeply damaged / hurt themselves at some level by abortion and later remorse / guilt.
What is the best way for society to promote the happiest overall outcome?
Is it to make abortion as freely available as possible?
There must be a better answer than promoting abortion?

Maybe it is the rest of the UK that is more in error than the people of Northern Ireland?

(Wealthy tax avoiding citizens with offshore money hidden from HMRC should note that they are stealing funds from society that could be used to promote welfare of women and children)

Why not bother to read the thread Lanchester?

The problem with your assertion is the idea that because there is a law that this will stop the abortion. It won't if there is that much pressure. It will merely drive it under ground. Women in this situation are the ones most in need of medical advice and support as they are the most vulnerable.

As usual anti-abortionists assert that the pro-choice movement "promotes" abortion. Yawn.

My answers are purely based on my experience and opinions:

That pressure is not their fault, and they can feel very desperate as a result.
I felt desperate and borderline suicidal at the thought of being pregnant again and that the decision not to continue my pregnancy was taken out of my hands. That was precisely because I couldn't access an abortion not the opposite as you're implying.

But is abortion a real solution?
Yes. My family is complete, for now. I have a child with SEN. He and his brother need all my focus. I know what is best for me and my family, thank you.

Abortion denies the unborn child their right to live their normal lifespan
And the children I already have? My concern is first and foremost about providing for them, financially, physically and emotionally.

It is a massive breach of trust by society towards both the woman and the developing child. The woman needs the immediate and ongoing support of society not a quick way out.
Errr....society can fuck right off. If it truly cared it would allow me to access a medical service with my partner present to support me. Not force me to make an expensive trip away from my support network.

The parents can be deeply damaged / hurt themselves at some level by abortion and later remorse / guilt.
No. I'm fine thanks, so is my dp. I've felt nothing but relief and looking at our stable family unit we are vindicated in our decision.

What is the best way for society to promote the happiest overall outcome?
Is it to make abortion as freely available as possible?
There must be a better answer than promoting abortion?
As Eve said, "make it safe and legal for all women. As early as possible, as late as necessary.

Maybe it is the rest of the UK that is more in error than the people of Northern Ireland?
What I and countless other women have experienced is not right. It is punitive, discriminatory and humiliating. And isolating. That cannot be right.

RedToothBrush Mon 11-Apr-16 23:36:24
".......Women in this situation are the ones most in need of medical advice and support as they are the most vulnerable."

I agree that women in this situation are the ones most in need of advice and support - but why rush to assume that needs to be Medical?

I think that saying "as they are the most vulnerable" is ignoring the vulnerable human foetus who is absolutely dependent on the care of others, who therefore have a commensurately serious duty to him / her.

SuburbanRhonda Tue 12-Apr-16 00:17:12

"As usual anti-abortionists assert that the pro-choice movement "promotes" abortion. Yawn."

I refer you to for example:
RedToothBrush Mon 11-Apr-16 23:36:24
".......Women in this situation are the ones most in need of MEDICAL [my emphasis] advice and support ......"

JacobFryes....

"Errr....society can fuck right off. If it truly cared it would allow me to access a medical service with my partner present to support me. Not force me to make an expensive trip away from my support network."

Surely though, actually ending the lives of developing humans is not a good way to show that society cares for them or their family ?

So what should i have done? I wanted the baby I was pregnant with. But I couldn't afford the baby. If I had gone through pregnancy I would have had all the congratulations, people noticing I was pregnant etc and me knowing I would have to give the baby up for adoption at birth but yet having to go through 9 months of getting attached and then labour
People fight to get women not to abort but would they have provided for my baby? Where are all these people once they've persuaded the woman not to have a termination? Are they giving her mental, financial and practical help? Didn't think so

Oh and it was a contraception failure. I now have a copper coil, use fertility tracking and condoms. So three methods to make sure I don't have to go through that again after being left with PTSD

Don't dress it up as concern for the woman. It's all about the foetus and nothing else. And frankly, a society that cares more about the tiny ball of cells in my uterus than about the wellbeing of my 4yo, 2yo, DP and myself needs to take a good, hard look at itself.

Luckily, I will never put the righteous indignation of people like you or the 'caring' nature of NI society over the needs of my children. And if I found myself in the same position (very very unlikely) I would make the same decision again. Even if its by illegal pills or an ruinously expensive trip. And I'd support other women to do the same.

People fight to get women not to abort but would they have provided for my baby? Where are all these people once they've persuaded the woman not to have a termination? Are they giving her mental, financial and practical help? Didn't think so

You'll find them in the daily mail comments section ranting about people having babies they can't afford at the expense of the taxpayer. As the saying goes, a woman's place is in the wrong.

And lanchester is your address cloud cuckoo land?

It's also worth pointing out that unlike the rest of the UK, N Ireland is somewhere that many young women would be shunned by their family for having a child outside of marriage. When Lanchester suggests that maybe NI has it right whilst the rest of the UK needs to change, she couldn't be more wrong.

Once again Lanchester, these answers have all, already been covered in the thread and you can't be bothered to read it so I won't indulge your blinkers.

I think treacle's last comment sums it up anyway tbh.

As I said previously, the law is not the issue. If you are pro-choice you are not promoting abortion, and actually see legal and easy access as the way to reduce rates because its part of a wider attitude in society to not see women as second class.

Read my comments about statistics and goats.

I refer you to for example:
RedToothBrush Mon 11-Apr-16 23:36:24
".......Women in this situation are the ones most in need of MEDICAL [my emphasis] advice and support ......"

On what planet is redbrush's comment promoting abortion?

redtoothbrush

I try not to let posts and opinions such as Lanchester wind me up but its so bloody tough.

I've had an abortion I know many women who have had abortions not one of us has been traumatised. I never felt guilt. Why the fuck would anyone feel remorse
It obviously suits the anti choice people to push this nonsense on to women.
"You must feel guilt you killed your baby" "What about all the poor dead babies"

Well what about all the born children, the ones who need their mother. The chidren who go to school, have friends are loved wanted and cherished. What about their mother who may face an unwanted pregnancy. She is loved wanted cherished. To put the rights of these people below a pregnancy is frankly fucking twisted

But the anti choice don't actually give a shit about women or the children who are already born.
They don't care that currently there are 1100 children homeless in Dublin.
No they'd rather demonise women and insult them when they do go through with a pregnancy and end up homeless.

LucyBabs

Anyone got any figures on child deprivation and poverty in NI compared to rest of UK? I think that would make interesting reading...

Some NI facts and figures (Source: Barnardo’s Northern Ireland Poverty Briefing)

The rate of infant mortality in the most deprived areas in Northern Ireland is one
third higher than that of the Northern Ireland average.

The rate of teenage pregnancies for girls aged 13 to 16 years in the most deprived areas is three times that of the rest of the country.

In 2001 half of all lone parents lacked a car.

28 per cent of those living in the most deprived areas in Northern Ireland do not have a bank account, which means they will pay significantly more for financial services and utility bills.

Children living in poor areas do less well in school – in English 37 per cent of 11 year olds in the most deprived fifth of primary schools fail to reach level four this compares to an average of 23 per cent.

The proportion of young people getting few or no GCSEs has remained largely unchanged for the last decade at around 14 per cent of all 16 year olds. This is doubled among children entitled to free school meals at 30 per cent.

There are almost 27,000 families with children living in fuel poverty in Northern Ireland.

Families with disabled children are 50 per cent more likely to be in debt and 50 per cent less likely to be able to afford holidays, new clothes, school outings or ‘treats’ for their children.

No family in Northern Ireland cannot afford to feed their children, but many have seriously depleted diets and many suffer material and social deprivation. While for some poverty is a transitory experience, for most of those who are poor it is something they are used to. Over two thirds of those living in poverty will have been poor for at least three out of the last four years.

lucybabs Frankly, I think you are demonising people you don't know and don't understand. Caring about unborn children does not necessarily mean they care about women any less, just that they've come to different conclusions about what's 'right'. So don't be a bigot. No pro-lifer has the right to make assumptions or sweeping statements about what you or any of your friends think or feel. And vice verca.

fed up I'm not sure what the relevance of these figures are without comparable stats for the rest of the UK or clear links to the abortion issue? You're saying NI has poverty. We knew that.